Book Club: July: The 7.5 Thoughts About Evelyn Hardcastle

Sawneeks

little green dog
I'm late to the thread, but I read a reddit AMA with the author and wanted to pass on some interesting information



This is correct per the author.

Dammit, I had a quote about why Coleridge was in Blackheath, but it's gone - Coleridge was one of Anna's accomplices

More actual thoughts tomorrow, time permitting

Do you have a link to that AMA?
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims

I hate this ending even more now.

"The thing that created Blackheath" wtf. Authors are the worst. If they didn't put the stuff in the book then they should be banned from talking about it.

The thing that created Blackheath was a future society
The thing that created Blackheath was an Alien Race
The thing that created Blackheath was love
The thing that created Blackheath was a maniac with a really powerful PC and a few VR headsets
 
This feels like a good example of why I preferred the limited information that was provided within the book. It's better than a half-answer like this.
lol I agree with this, but also, I feel like it also applies to my theoretical reality simulation machine from page 1 so I'm declaring it canon.
 

weemadarthur

Mad as in angry, or mad as in crazy?
It doesn’t matter what the thing is, though. We know it needs intelligence and data. Doesn’t matter if it is a higher power, an AI, or aliens, what matters is whether Blackheath could work for its intended purpose, which appears to be torture of someone convicted of war-crime level atrocities.
 

Faddy

of, having, or involving transitory whims
It is worth remembering Annabelle Caulker's alleged crimes seem extremely ANIME and completely made up.

‘The name Annabelle Caulker, the woman you know as Anna, is a curse in
every language in which it is spoken,’ he says, pinning me in place with his
gaze. ‘She was the leader of a group which sowed destruction and death
across half the nations of the world and would surely still be doing so if she
hadn’t been caught

‘She murdered your sister,’ he says bluntly.
My world empties.
‘She tortured her, humiliated her and made the world watch,’ he continues.
‘That’s who Anna is, and people like that don’t change, Aiden.’
I drop to my knees, clutching my temples as old memories erupt.
My sister was called Juliette. She had brown hair, and a bright smile. She
was charged with capturing Annabelle Caulker, and I was so proud of her.

Sounds like Anna was a good comrade and Aiden, his sister, Blackheath and everyone in this system is Fascist.

The revelation in this novel is that Bougie Aiden starts to identify with the worker after having to deal with all these upper class twats.
 

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
It is worth remembering Annabelle Caulker's alleged crimes seem extremely ANIME and completely made up.

that's exactly why i compared her to someone in Danganronpa in the last page, both characters give the same vibe and have the same reputation xD
 

weemadarthur

Mad as in angry, or mad as in crazy?
New topic.
The horrors of poorly written first person view.

Many new authors write self insert fiction. The most common PoV for self inserts is first person. My opinion on reading a lot of this stuff is that most people who want to be authors suck at writing.
This book gains from having a first person viewpoint, as the main character switches bodies and feels differently in them, we gain insights that aren’t seeable from Bell’s view. Note: isn’t Bellevue a famous prison/asylum?

It also uses amnesia, an extremely overused trope in the video game genre, in order to allow the Player to learn about the world along with the playable character. In this case it also works. David Eddings used adolescent characters for a similar purpose, and when he explained why, he said that he chose a Galahad-esque trope deliberately, and also euphemised the trope as Sir Dumb. As in, a character learning about his own world looks like an idiot for not already knowing. Amnesia has so often been a shortcut for that, and in the mystery genre specifically, used to make the character wonder if they might be the murderer, that just seeing amnesia makes me cringe. This leaves out the medical reality compared to the fictional version, which is another topic entirely.

Yet I’m okay with it in this book.
 

RetroMG

Bergentrukung
Staff member
that's exactly why i compared her to someone in Danganronpa in the last page, both characters give the same vibe and have the same reputation xD

In my mind, Annabelle absolutely looked like the mastermind from Danganronpa 1 when they were describing her crimes.

Amnesia has so often been a shortcut for that, and in the mystery genre specifically, used to make the character wonder if they might be the murderer, that just seeing amnesia makes me cringe.

When I was much, much younger, I wrote a mystery story about a cop investigating a serial killer, only for the big twist at the end to be that the cop had been bitten by a Vampire and was going into a fugue state every night and committing the murders as part of his transition to full vamp-hood. There's no real point to me telling you this. I just wanted to make you share in my own personal cringe.

I also feel like the sequel to this would inevitably become like the sequel film to Battle Royal, with Aiden and Anna becoming "freedom fighters" to take down the oppressive society, and this just all makes me really glad that the author doesn't plan to do another story in that world. (Although I'd be okay if he did another body-jumping murder mystery like this one.)
 

weemadarthur

Mad as in angry, or mad as in crazy?
When I was much, much younger, I wrote a mystery story about a cop investigating a serial killer, only for the big twist at the end to be that the cop had been bitten by a Vampire and was going into a fugue state every night and committing the murders as part of his transition to full vamp-hood. There's no real point to me telling you this. I just wanted to make you share in my own personal cringe.
Good, another one. We need more of them. XD
Would you like me to pontificate on a Star Trek episode which was quite similar? No?
 

heymonkey

Known Roblox Expert
Staff member
Welp, turns out feps gets all the credit here; being out of town and on slower internet has really cramped everything I wanted to do this week. :(

Does the method of releasing prisoners even really pretend that those who leave might deserve it? In that respect, as much as anyone.

As far as it goes, Anna seemed to be fine though.

I agree here; the whole system seems flawed at best. However, with Anna, the author seems to take special care to indicate that she, at least, may actually deserve it - but it isn't the system that gives her release. It's the others involved who engineer it. I think that's about as close as the book really comes to making a larger statement, and I really don't know how I feel about it. Sure, people can bend a system to make it work for a few so-called deserving individuals... but who gets that help? That it's a woman here, a woman presented as "innocent" even when we know more about her, that's not lost on me. She benefits, but not because of the system. No one really addresses fixing the system itself. Kinda made me sigh at the end.
 

heymonkey

Known Roblox Expert
Staff member
I think the end feels off, I was expecting the explanation, if given, to be some curse, nightmare or anything more in the realm of personal stuff. Instead the world-level actors revealed near the end feels uncalled for and the punishment/forgiveness/redemption themes taken out of nowhere. I remember Aiden speculating of being in hell or purgatory, but that isn't nearly enough.

To directly answer your question, in any case she should had gotten life imprisonment in a high security prison instead of put into a vr torture chamber, showing that their captors are trash too

In any case, I think the end executes it themes poorly and cheapens the overall novel. I wondered myself if it was an attempt at world building to make sequels(that should be a totally different genre than whodunit, probably)
I haven't read the rest of the discussion yet so maybe this is already addressed but I agree here - I felt for so long that maybe this was a game, in fact. The elements were there - a map, the questing feel, the retries, the different characters. The fact that it's some kind of punishment system that isn't really built out or addressed felt like a let down. Especially since we don't really get anything after the moment of release. Even Aiden's struggle with himself and his hosts just feels... dropped at the end. What has he learned? What has he become? We have to speculate because we don't even know if what the Plague Doctor told him about himself and his motivations is fully accurate. We don't see pre- and post-Aiden at all. I just felt... not much at the end. Which was a disappointment, because I was very invested through most of the novel!
 

heymonkey

Known Roblox Expert
Staff member
Reading through the thread now and I just want to say I really appreciate you all and I'm delighted that we're doing this and it fuels such good discussion. There's so much I want to respond to!
 
Hello dear book club,
today I decided to finally write in this thread.

Overall I enjoyed the book. The underlying principle of body switching time travel was neat. Some hosts were more entertaining than others. Or rather Aiden's confrontation with the new body & environment was what I was looking forward to most of the times. Dance was probably the highlight for me, especially because of the surging conflict within him.

I echo the disappointment with the ending. It fell flat for me. Of course it was the author's wish to bring our attention to the central questions and that not providing a more elaborative history for the mc or Anna was the point.
But I need my backstory, damn it! In general everything regarding the outside world seemed to be on a shaky ground. How on earth could that be a legitimate way of punishment? In what kind of world are these people living? Why would they let Aiden in to torment her? How does losing every memory equal repenting? How can Silver Tear slip in and on the other hand be kept there?
 
Did Anna deserve to leave Blackheath?
As far as it goes, Anna seemed to be fine though.
Anna seemed fine in the sense that she did everything in order to escape? All she did was trust Aiden would get her out? What kind of redeeming character traits did she show?
If you trust Aiden when he says she's not the same person, of course. The Annabelle that committed those crimes was tortured for decades to the point of non-existence, and a different person lives in that body.
I don't think we have enough info to judge Anna, all we see are 8 days of trying to get out by helping Aiden. She may have lost her memories, but who is to say what kind of person she is now?

-----
To directly answer your question, in any case she should had gotten life imprisonment in a high security prison instead of put into a vr torture chamber, showing that their captors are trash too
It wasn't intended to be a torture chamber, to be fair. Aiden and Daniel turned it into one for her. It had the potential to be a pretty mellow prison, at least by certain standards
What would you consider reliving the same day for years without a possible escape? Is losing all your memories mercy in that regard? And obviously Aiden was let in by supervisors so it was intended to be a torture chamber at that point.

In any case, I think the end executes it themes poorly and cheapens the overall novel. I wondered myself if it was an attempt at world building to make sequels(that should be a totally different genre than whodunit, probably)
This thought also crossed my mind, but in the end there was not enough info drop to justify a sequel.

-----
On that topic, how much did everyone actually solve?
Not much to be honest and I don't think the author intended it. Parts were purposely hidden, like @Faddy mentioned. The two solvable riddles were maybe Daniel and Evelyn/Madeline. Daniel not being host was obvious to me once Gold signaled being one. I think numbers didn't add up, so I side-eyed him hard.
At that point I also had some theories of another host with the ability to jump bodies and tried to think of characters involved (Helena - Millicent - Evelyn - Anna - some maids?).

The Evelyn/Madeline switch went over my head. When Millicent Derby discovered it, I knew I missed an important piece, but I was too lazy to look into it and just continued reading.

How were we supposed to find out Evelyn was a psycho child who murdered two kids, one of which was her little brother(!), anyway? Was it ever mentioned Evelyn was out with the stable boy that went missing before the final reveal?

-----
Can we blame the person inhabiting Daniel Coleridge for being overtaken by his host? There is no true way to know what the real personality of each character in this story is.
The book mentions that Aiden's personality was clear when he was in Sebastian and faded as he jumped from host to host. Since Daniel and Anna never jumped I'd assume that their personality is what we see in the book itself.
I don't think Aiden's personality diminished linearly. Some were just more powerful characters than others. Derby has by far the most effect on him where as Gold, the final host, is one of the least.
I think the author was unable to follow through with his idea of a linear progression because the riddle had to be solved. Rashton was the hero in shining armour who connected all the dots because the plot needed it. All that ever happened was going after the footman (and nearly dying), which Aiden says he didn't notice Rashton taking over.
The inner fight with Derby might stick in mind because of the actions Derby wants to take, but Aiden is able to fight it off. The discussion between Dance and Peter Hardcastle seems to demand a greater will from Aiden to pull through.
Gold leaving no impression is why I was pretty disappointed there, he was almost as bland as the butler. The only struggle was actually being violent towards the butler, but that didn't seem like a hard task in the end.
The progression was also shown in the memories he was able to retrieve.

There are some words at the start of each day that Aiden is becoming less distinguished from his host but the chapters don't really play out like that in any significant way.
And in that way I think the author intended to make it happen that way, but failed.

-----
What was everyone’s favorite host?
My favourite was definitely Dance. Second would probably be Bell? Ravencourt did stick out, but to be plain I could sympathize and understand the struggle with being old way more than with being fat. But I liked the calm, clear and rational mind that he possessed especially in contrast to Derby. Derby was an emotional experience, but I wouldn't call him my favourite. Rashton was nice to follow because he lifted the most weight at the end and a detective just fits right in there. Yeah, I'd say Dance - Bell - Ravencourt/Derby/Rashton and way off Butler/Gold - Donald Davies, which leads me to:

I think Donald Davies was a second for me because being described by everyone as dressed like a rainbow is great
I know this is mostly in joking, but is there anything to him that was interesting? I only remember the talk with the plague doctor and that he ran off, which was pretty boring.
What happened with him, when he woke up again? That was the "don't get out of the carriage" part?
 
I wish the plague doctor would have revealed what the original order of characters was. Is it supposed to be in waking order?
It's a nice thing to ponder about, but ultimately one I don't need to know. The plague doctor said he tried a lot of different orders and always came back to Bell's affection towards Evelyn(Madeline) being the key to keep Aiden solving.

I want to pose this question : Did Aiden deserve to be released?
Natiko covered this. He should've never been allowed inside. After his cruel deeds, I'm not so sure. But this all just ties into the whole system being bananas.

I feel like the book really wants you to buy into the idea that removed from their crimes, a person can change and evolve over time. (...) If Derby were thrown into a rehabilitation simulation like Aiden would he too have changed? Based on the way the book lays things out it seems that he likely would.
But the key in altering a person was to make them forget what person they are? It's not removed from their crimes, but removed from their whole life, from everything they ever were. For me memories are such a huge part of what makes a person that person.

To me though, I still think there's an argument to be made that the author's viewpoint is flawed. He seems to argue that Aiden and Anna are rehabilitated and deserve to be absolved of their past crimes/intentions, but is that viewpoint valid when even the Plague Doctor (someone with full knowledge of their past selves) is skeptical and the only wholly convinced person is Aiden, someone who at the time is frequently referencing his inability to keep his 'self' clear and distinct from his hosts? The same Aiden that has very limited memory and knowledge of these past atrocities?
I agree that Aiden's view is very limited and should not be the point. I somewhat agree with Tearable's argument:
So it’s not a matter of being absolved, but a matter of is this right? Do people truly deserve this for the rest of their lives?
It's probably that the plague doctor has seen enough of this endless cruelty and decides to free them because of that. Which leads to the question: Should this have been enforced at all? Is brainwashing prisoners okay? How should we handle crime & punishment?
 
Unsatisfied with the AMA, the questions were not the best.
Note: isn’t Bellevue a famous prison/asylum?
Quick google search says Bellevue Hospital is the oldest public hospital in the United States (located in Manhattan). Another one is Belle Vue Goal in Manchester which operated in the second half of the 19th century and was known for abysmal conditions. And Bellevue Asylum is a location in Fahrenheit: Indigo Prophecy ;) Of course as a german I immediatly thought of Bellevue Palace the residence of the german president in Berlin.

---
One more thing:
I can't remember exactly, but didn't Aiden at one point very clearly state something along the lines: "There are two of them! Two footmen that look the same, twins. That's how he could be here and there and managed to stay ahead."?
 

turmoil7

Imperial Corps Commander Who Cheers the Army
Yes he did but I don't recall where that line of thought went

Probably it just crumbled when it came to light he was in cahoots with Daniel?
 
I know this is mostly in joking, but is there anything to him that was interesting? I only remember the talk with the plague doctor and that he ran off, which was pretty boring.
What happened with him, when he woke up again? That was the "don't get out of the carriage" part?
It was mostly in joking but I do find it fascinating that the author made the characters described by others as the one with the most friends as the one that falls asleep on the road for most of the story. But it also makes sense that he’s the host that everyone that came out to help as Aiden was being held at gunpoint. Since Davies had the most friends of all the hosts, he’s probably a real big people person.

Yeah, they found him and took him back in the carriage and instead of staying inside he got out to grab the shotgun and that’s when we meet Silver Tear, Daniel gets drowned, and Thomas in the lake:(
 

Natiko

Town's Friendly Neighborhood Serial Killer
It's a nice thing to ponder about, but ultimately one I don't need to know. The plague doctor said he tried a lot of different orders and always came back to Bell's affection towards Evelyn(Madeline) being the key to keep Aiden solving.


Natiko covered this. He should've never been allowed inside. After his cruel deeds, I'm not so sure. But this all just ties into the whole system being bananas.


But the key in altering a person was to make them forget what person they are? It's not removed from their crimes, but removed from their whole life, from everything they ever were. For me memories are such a huge part of what makes a person that person.


I agree that Aiden's view is very limited and should not be the point. I somewhat agree with Tearable's argument:
It's probably that the plague doctor has seen enough of this endless cruelty and decides to free them because of that. Which leads to the question: Should this have been enforced at all? Is brainwashing prisoners okay? How should we handle crime & punishment?
That's a fair argument, though I feel like it could have been better displayed if that was the author's intention. I would agree though that this method of "rehabilitation" doesn't really seem like rehabilitation at all. It's like saying "dang, this table is broken. I'm going to fix it by burning it to ash".

Unsatisfied with the AMA, the questions were not the best.

Quick google search says Bellevue Hospital is the oldest public hospital in the United States (located in Manhattan). Another one is Belle Vue Goal in Manchester which operated in the second half of the 19th century and was known for abysmal conditions. And Bellevue Asylum is a location in Fahrenheit: Indigo Prophecy ;) Of course as a german I immediatly thought of Bellevue Palace the residence of the german president in Berlin.

---
One more thing:
I can't remember exactly, but didn't Aiden at one point very clearly state something along the lines: "There are two of them! Two footmen that look the same, twins. That's how he could be here and there and managed to stay ahead."?
I think that was mainly a way to explain how they could do so much and that was pretty much that lol
 

turmoil7

Imperial Corps Commander Who Cheers the Army
I think the author was unable to follow through with his idea of a linear progression because the riddle had to be solved. Rashton was the hero in shining armour who connected all the dots because the plot needed it.
Yeah this is a feel I can't shake off, I know the author covers it by the plague doctor arranging the order but Rashton having super deduction skills on the last day felt oh so convenient
 
Yeah this is a feel I can't shake off, I know the author covers it by the plague doctor arranging the order but Rashton having super deduction skills on the last day felt oh so convenient
Even so, it only took him so far.
Yes, it led him to finding out Michael “killed Evelyn” but not really.
And even though he was this super detective that was formerly a soldier and all, he still died without putting up a fight.
I like how most of the characters were balanced, apart from poor Collins lol
 

Swamped

Dazzling Mafia Queen
I just finished this book! I had a blast with it, and overall loved it. I can't pretend I fully understand everything, but maybe on a second reading. Reading through the discussion here will help too. Really basic and dumb question: Why would Felicity want to murder Evelyn? Because she was 'used' by Evelyn? Honestly, couldn't keep track of all the motives lol...
 

turmoil7

Imperial Corps Commander Who Cheers the Army
I think it was just revenge because Evelyn wanted to kill her for real instead of faking it
 
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