Spectator Thread The Beehive

[Ty4on]

I do think the criticism is valid as it pertains to lynching Splinter. The vote swapping last second, the missed check, and finally throwing out so many checks could easily be seen as trying to sow confusion as a scum that expects to be lynched. That being said I also think Splinter has a valid point that the next phase featured town players primarily discussing all of his “checks” right before the lynch which literally could not all be true. That’s where town fell apart. Don’t get me wrong, I still think even if town had correctly surmised that all red checks were fake and only the green check is real it turns out any different. The ninja role really fucked you all. I just think there were some missteps by Splinter, but also by the remaining town the following day phase.

It doesn't make sense for a scum to throw out a bunch of checks. They're all going to be ignored when they flip.
Neither does the vote switching. It's very very very town, especially when a scum is on the line. Cocky and overconfident is not a common mafia play.

 

[Faddy]

I do think the criticism is valid as it pertains to lynching Splinter. The vote swapping last second, the missed check, and finally throwing out so many checks could easily be seen as trying to sow confusion as a scum that expects to be lynched. That being said I also think Splinter has a valid point that the next phase featured town players primarily discussing all of his “checks” right before the lynch which literally could not all be true. That’s where town fell apart. Don’t get me wrong, I still think even if town had correctly surmised that all red checks were fake and only the green check is real it turns out any different. The ninja role really fucked you all. I just think there were some missteps by Splinter, but also by the remaining town the following day phase.

I still don't know how anyone can throw away a red check though.

Everyone has claimed vanilla and mafia have a kill. So the red check is either that player is mafia or mafia have a 3rd PR. Not discussing a 3rd potential mafia PR was a mistake but there are so few roles that fit that world and it wasn't the actual solution. If Splinter just gave his real green checks he probably doesn't die. I push heavily for a no lynch so he can get another check.

Here is my logic for the last phases

So Day 5 (5-1) Splinter should have 3 greens on Oliver, Kalor, Zipped
Then we no lynch.
If Splinter dies the final 5 is me, kalor, oliver, zipped and fep. Maybe we push for FEP, I am more town than him.
Once he flips town I am still facing an uphill struggle against Oliver and Zipped with no motions detected but there is a chance to turn that around.

If Splinter doesn't die he gets a 4th check and the final 5 is me, Splinter, Oliver, Zipped FEP. Splinter should then have checks on Oliver, Zipped and FEP.
We lynch me and Splinter knows his checks don't work. We lynch Splinter and I know his checks don't work.

 

[Ty4on]

If Splinter doesn't die he gets a 4th check and the final 5 is me, Splinter, Oliver, Zipped FEP. Splinter should then have checks on Oliver, Zipped and FEP.
We lynch me and Splinter knows his checks don't work. We lynch Splinter and I know his checks don't work.

Isn't the Oliver check partial having been made when more players were still alive?
The Kalor check too is partial with the possibility of a mafia goon alive.

 

[Natiko]

It doesn't make sense for a scum to throw out a bunch of checks. They're all going to be ignored when they flip.
Neither does the vote switching. It's very very very town, especially when a scum is on the line. Cocky and overconfident is not a common mafia play.

I think that assumes perfectly even keeled play from the mafia members though. We have definitely seen last second vote swapping from mafia before switching to a last second bus when they give up on saving a teammate. We have also seen mafia lose track of vote counts at day end too. Mafia can make those errors just the same as Town. As for the fake checks, if scum Splinter is convinced he will be the lynch that day and sees the votes quickly stacking towards a turbo then at that point the need for rational play doesn’t always stick. Sometimes scum just like to throw out shit as they die. Does it actually have any meaningful results? Generally no, but that doesn’t change that it occurs.

 

[Ty4on]

I think that assumes perfectly even keeled play from the mafia members though. We have definitely seen last second vote swapping from mafia before switching to a last second bus when they give up on saving a teammate. We have also seen mafia lose track of vote counts at day end too. Mafia can make those errors just the same as Town. As for the fake checks, if scum Splinter is convinced he will be the lynch that day and sees the votes quickly stacking towards a turbo then at that point the need for rational play doesn’t always stick. Sometimes scum just like to throw out shit as they die. Does it actually have any meaningful results? Generally no, but that doesn’t change that it occurs.

Mafia are less likely than town to throw out plays like that because they're so incentivised to stay out of harm's way. Stay on the counter-wagon to push that or stay on the bus to affirm your position.

When I voted Sorian last minute that was 100% to look townie for breaking the tie. Had I been certain it wasn't a tie I would've stayed to avoid attention and that's why I pushed the angle that I thought it was a tie.

 

[Faddy]

Isn't the Oliver check partial having been made when more players were still alive?
The Kalor check too is partial with the possibility of a mafia goon alive.

Yeah that is partial. But eventually without the lies a town player will know Splinter's checks don't fully work. There is work to do and no one is cleared but at least everyone needs to evaluate the game critically at that point.


When Splinter presents that red check then flips town, the game is basically done. Here is the needle that would need to be threaded. Mafia has a confirmed 3rd player. Let's say a roleblocker.

After Splinter claims the mafia team realise they shouldn't use their powers. DCPat makes the kill because he is a dead duck in their eyes. Splinter checks zipped but he doesn't move. (This is better than just blocking Splinter since if Splinter gets blocked he 100% knows Oliver and Kalor are town since they never moved.)

The next night Zipped has to make the kill and he roleblocks someone else. Then the red checked player, me, would need to convince other town players of this highly unlikely scenario vs just a red check on them.

 

[Splinter]

My mistakes were suspecting Faddy despite his Terra vote and not making it obvious that the red checks were false. I thought it was obvious enough but clearly not.

 

[Faddy]

My mistakes were suspecting Faddy despite his Terra vote and not making it obvious that the red checks were false. I thought it was obvious enough but clearly not.

Ok let's say we turbo FEP right off the bat and he flips town. How do you turn that around?

I'm getting left alive and going hard at you. I would like to think I would still have no lynched. Is the final 3 me, you and Zipped and do you think we win? It would have been interesting.

 

[Ty4on]

Ok let's say we turbo FEP right off the bat and he flips town. How do you turn that around?

I'm getting left alive and going hard at you. I would like to think I would still have no lynched. Is the final 3 me, you and Zipped and do you think we win? It would have been interesting.

Town circle should've stayed alive
Green checks be damned

Spoiler

Or maybe Splinter green checks all the townies and you win that way lol

 

[Faddy]

Town circle should've stayed alive
Green checks be damned

Spoiler

Or maybe Splinter green checks all the townies and you win that way lol

I'm not saying I would have come off my tunnel on Splinter but it would have been a similar situation to Ouro's game with Monkey.

Apologies Splinter. The WORST play of the game is Lone_Prodigy not bodyguarding Ty on night 1.

 

[Ty4on]

Then I didn't have to worry playing and messing up though :D

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

I'm not saying I would have come off my tunnel on Splinter but it would have been a similar situation to Ouro's game with Monkey.

Apologies Splinter. The WORST play of the game is Lone_Prodigy not bodyguarding Ty on night 1.

Hindsight. There was no way to determine who was a PR and a likely scum target on N1. And I'm not protecting a vanilla.

The worst play was lynching a claimed PR. Either the PR is scum, in which case they'd be heavily scrutinized for not dying right away, or they're telling the truth and will be NKed.

The right play would've been to tie and no lynch. Scum would have to decide whether to kill me or even douse me and if they did neither I would've saved our claimed cop the next night.

And let's not forget the deafening silence that day end. Scum would not sit idly by while their teammate dies.

 

[Sawneeks]

That was an interesting thread.

I found some of the questioning of my tactics pretty bad to be honest. town circles work and is a legitimate idea. in fact it is a huge part of why DCPat got caught. I gave him a hard unearned town read and while I am being townie he can never mislynch me without looking terrible.

Also as much as I do want to try this Town Circle thing, I'm gonna have to disagree here. It might have been why you lynched him Faddy but it wasn't the majority reason for everyone else on that vote. His last second switch to not lynch Scum!Terra outed him when he had no reasonable way to back it up. Splinter even collected all his posts that talked about how the two up to lynch were fairly townie and yet he backed away from Terra very suddenly when things were tied.

 

[Faddy]

Also as much as I do want to try this Town Circle thing, I'm gonna have to disagree here. It might have been why you lynched him Faddy but it wasn't the majority reason for everyone else on that vote. His last second switch to not lynch Scum!Terra outed him when he had no reasonable way to back it up. Splinter even collected all his posts that talked about how the two up to lynch were fairly townie and yet he backed away from Terra very suddenly when things were tied.

He did make a bad play but the instinct for most people when they get a town read is to give one back. So it makes it harder for a mafia player to get a mislynch on a strongly read town player. Basically it is a good tactic for Town - Town and a decent tactic for town to pocket (not quite the right word idk) contain mafia

I thought Splinter completely buried him for the sudden flip.

Ideally you don't put any mafia in your circle and allowing a really strong player in there if you aren't really sure is bad play. But the whole circle thing never really materialised with Ty's death. I thought it was an interesting idea to at least attempt in a small game.

 

[Splinter]

I feel like the most effective town circles develop naturally in the mid-late game. Forcing one on day one is an interesting way to shape the game though as long as you don't get too invested in it.

 

[DCPAT]

I certainly didn't like being in there. But I wonder what would've happened if the lynch went between Fireblend and Faddy and I didn't have to try save Terra based on nothing.

 

[Silky]

:^)