The Mansion Design & discussion

Discussion in 'The Mansion Design Thread' started by Pedro, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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  2. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    Hi everyone.

    I just looked a bit over the design and have some comments and questions:

    1- Scum seems underpowered. Town has an unlimited doctor and can get an unlimited roleblock and scum only has 2 strong shots to deal with that.
    2- Can scum roleblock the aligment cop? The results are made public in the game?
    3- Are they mason or lovers? Because I understood that they were masons that they were going to sacrifice instead of the other in case of a lynch but in the worst scenario sheet you say that both of them dies.
    4- When you say that the influencer needs 5 NK to occur in the night previous to the group reaching the Dark Room did you meant that he needed to mark 5 players?
    5- Blue room may not work well in Mylo/Lylo. The teal room could have the same problem.
    6- The purple room just count the votes that moved that day or during all the game? And if noone move the vote more than once?
     
  3. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    Worst case scenario for town seems to be D5 and that's ok. They have plenty of chances to catch scum. If they suck at it it's their fault.

    Worst case scenario for scum is D2 (vigilante kills scum D1, scum lynch D1, vigi NK scum N1, double lynch scum D2) and that could be trouble. And they don't even need to play too badly to reach this scenario. If the vigi is really lucky, a lynch during the first couple of phases can be decided over the littlest mistake.

    I also think that the influencer could have a bulletproof.
     
  4. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    Can they choose the same room more than once?
     
  5. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Guys, first of all: thank you for indulging me :)

    They should be able to. The alignment cop gets his roleblocked shot back so that he can use it another day, however.

    The results are not made public. They arrive privately to the alignment cop like usually.

    Both. Kinda.

    They're "Lynch Lovers" (which is terrible nomenclature, I know, haha). If one of them is lynched, the other dies too, and not instead of the other. If one of them is night killed instead of lynched, however, the remaining one becomes a roleblocker.

    No. All deaths that happen during the night after they vote to visit the Dark Room count towards his win con. That includes marked players, scum NK and possibly the vig shot as well. So if both the scum NK and a vig shot go through, the Influencer could reach his win con with only 3 marked players.

    I put that in there to give the influencer some leeway. He can try to play it safe and push for the Dark Room choice when he has 5 marked players, or he can take a chance on the scum NK and go for it with only 4 marked players, if he feels pressured for some reason.

    You're right. The Blue Room would put town in an extremely harsh position during MyLo/LyLo, as scum will always try to go for a hammer in that situation. I could possibly come up with a nerfed version of that room, or even take it out of the rotation if it comes to MyLo/LyLo and it's still an option. I'll think it over.

    Regarding the Teal Room, though, there's a bit of information I forgot to put in the sheet: the number of BPs it distributes diminishes as the game goes on. It only gives out 4 random BPs with over 20 players alive. When the number of players alive reaches 19, the number of BPs goes down to 3; 13 or less players, 2 BPs; and finally 7 or less players, 1 BP.

    It only counts the votes put in while they are inside the Purple Room. If no one moves their votearound, no one gets punished, and only the most voted player ends up lynched.

    The concept behind that room is to force players to think things through completely before putting down a vote, as changing their vote would probably mean they'd die as well.

    I'm now considering the possibility of 3 players moving their vote, say, 3 times, and ending up tied. I don't know if I'd want to kill them all. If only 2 players tied, I wouldn't hesitate, but with 3, I don't know.
    Maybe it'd be simpler to just say "The player who moves their vote around more than once dies".

    It dawned on me a couple of weeks ago that I'd submitted the design document after being way too worried about town and the neutral player while completely neglecting the scum side of things. But by then it was already too late, haha.

    I'm going to test some ideas for changes in their powers. Besides the 2 strong shots and the 2 roleblock shots, what do you think would be a good way to counter the unlimited doctor and roleblocker on town side? Turning scum's roleblocker into an unlimited one, maybe.

    One thing I'll do right off the bat is give the goon a BP.

    That was definitely an oversight. He needs one. I'll add it to the sheet.

    No. The idea is that they'll only be able to access each room once.

    With that said, I'm considering having them start on the Dark Room instead of in the White Room. The reason behind that is my worry that the Influencer will have a hard time convincing the rest of the players to go into an unknown room.
    If they start from there, since no one will be marked at the beginning of D1, they'll be under the impression that "nothing happens in the Dark Room", and that could be a possible avenue for the Influencer to argue in favor of visiting it.

    I'm still mulling over this, though. Maybe the inconsistency in having that one be the only room they could return to could backfire on the Influencer instead.
     
  6. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    OK. As the role command was REVEAL I thought the results would be public.

    It's OK too.

    This role is really interesting. I like it. I'm just no sure how 5 kills in the same night will work out near end game.

    The Blue Room shouldn't have a majority rule even when they are not in Mylo/Lylo. Maybe you could merge the Yellow Room with the Blue one and change the Yellow to another condition.

    That makes more sense.

    Maybe if it's a tie noone dies or some kind of thunderdome situation.

    I think the strongman and the roleblocker should get a couple of more shots each. Or an unlimited roleblocker and make strongman 3-shot. The tracker could use an extra shot too.

    I think it's ok if they start in the white room. The dark room it's dangerous for both town and scum so making them doubt to go there is ok. You could force them to go to the dark room after some point (like they must go to that room at D7 or something like that) but I don't know how so many kills could affect the game at that point.
     
  7. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad, haha. Knowing how these things go, though, they'll probably get lynched on D1 :P

    In terms of game impact, he's not that different from an arson - the main difference being that he doesn't need to kill everyone else to win. I don't think it'll be a problem.

    That's a good idea.

    This could work. If everyone only votes once, no one but the chosen lynch dies. If there's a tie between people who moved their votes more than the others, it's a thunderdome.

    I'm very comfortable giving the tracker at least one more shot. A 3-shot strongman should be fine though (maybe I should change the Influencer's one-shot protection from regular BP unavoidable BP).
    I don't know about an unlimited roleblocker, though. Town has to work for theirs, and I feel like a scum roleblocker is way more powerful because there's no risk of them using it on a teammate. 3-shot could work.

    Right now, instead of:

    2-shot roleblocker
    2-shot strongman
    2-shot silencer
    2-shot tracker
    Goon

    We have:

    3-shot roleblocker
    3-shot strongman
    2-shot silencer
    3-shot tracker
    BP

    I don't think we should force them to go to the Dark Room because convincing them to do that is part of the Influencer's role. In any case, they'll run out of other room options by D10... hahaha.
     
  8. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    I was thinking of him like an arsonist too but 5 may seem to much. They usually need to kill less people. I'm worried that 5 kills near endgame could be overkill for any aligment.


    The question is when to make the thunderdome. It would be the next day phase?

    It seems better that way.

    What hints were you thinking of providing about the rooms?
     
  9. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    @Geno will replace cabot as this game's reviewer.
     
  10. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    Alright a couple of things.
    1. I think scum is still a bit underpowered, there's 20 townies and 5 scum members. I think the solution is to remove a vanilla townie instead of adding a scum member.
    2. I'm not sure giving hints in the flavor that the Dark Room is dangerous is a good idea, if they never visit it then the third party is kinda fucked, even by the name it sounds like something you don't want to visit.
    Other than those it looks good.
     
  11. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    This come from the one who run a game with 15 neutrals and a whole bunch of scum.

    Just kidding. Loved that game.
     
  12. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    Lmao haha.
     
  13. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    My big worry that counterweighs this one is that making it so that he needs less kills to win would make it too easy for him.

    Do you think reducing that number to 4 would improve things in that regard?

    I can do it like Geno handled the post-death item redistributions in HvV - opening the thread up for an hour or so a little while after the day is over.

    These are the hints I was planning on giving:

    Dark Room - "Fates could change." <- Is this too ominous?
    Orange Room (invisible votes) - "Noise will muddle the voices of the choosing ones."
    Red Room (two groups lynch one player each) - "Backs will be turned against the glass wall."
    Pink Room (two groups, each lynches a player in the opposing room) - "Accusatory looks will be thrown across the glass wall."
    Green Room (no lynch) - "The voices will be pacified"
    Purple Room (move your vote more than once = death) - "Unincisiveness will be punished."
    Blue Room (no majority rule, no vote = death) - "Silence will be punished."
    Grey Room (3 vote changes = death) - "Uncertainty will be punished."
    Teal Room (BPs in the following night) - "The shield will rise."

    And I thought of something else for the yellow room - what do you guys think of making town elect someone to become immune in the next night phase? It'd be a separate vote from the lynch one.

    Yellow Room (elected BP for the following night) - "The voices will also protect."

    I'm ok with removing a vanilla townie. It wouldn't change the worst case scenario for town (D5 in the dark room).
     
  14. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    How willing would you be to swap the dark room with another room? I think the dark room being the one that kills them makes too much sense.
     
  15. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    You mean the colors? I’d be totally fine with it.
     
  16. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I meant the colors.
     
  17. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    I've switched it around with the Blue Room, which is one that I think people will be gunning for, going by its description. At least that way the Dark Room moniker will help give them some pause.

    Blue Room - "Fates could change."
    Orange Room (invisible votes) - "Noise will muddle the voices of the choosing ones."
    Red Room (two groups lynch one player each) - "Backs will be turned against the glass wall."
    Pink Room (two groups, each lynches a player in the opposing room) - "Accusatory looks will be thrown across the glass wall."
    Green Room (no lynch) - "The voices will be pacified"
    Purple Room (move your vote more than once = death) - "Unincisiveness will be punished."
    Dark Room (no majority rule, no vote = death) - "Silence will be punished."
    Grey Room (3 vote changes = death) - "Uncertainty will be punished."
    Teal Room (BPs in the following night) - "The shield will rise."
    Yellow Room (elected BP for the following night) - "The voices will also protect."

    Do you guys think the Teal Room's description is too on the nose? I'm struggling to find a more subtle description.
     
  18. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    Alright cool, much better now imo.
    I was thinking that with the Teal room, but then it creates a kind of strategy I would say, if they know visiting it will give them good stuff, do they go for it early or do they go for it later on?
     
  19. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's a fair point. Even if they decide it's a good thing right off the bat, I'm not sure they'll go for it right away. I think having a range of good-sounding to bad-sounding rooms is a good thing in the end.
     
  20. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    I've run through the new worst case scenarios, and I think scum has a little more leeway now with one less townie and their improved PRs. On the other hand, town's worst case scenario is still D5 with 4 Influencer-induced deaths on the Dark Room.

    I tried reducing the number of simultaneous kills the Influencer would need for their win-con, but that made the worst case scenario for town be on D4 start... Which I think is a bit too much.

    This is the current setup:

    9x Vanilla Townies
    2x Town Sleepwalkers
    1x Town Doctor (unlimited shots)
    1x Town Alignment Cop (2 shots)
    1x Town Self-Watcher (unlimited shots), Bulletproof (1-shot)
    2x Town Mason/Lynch Lovers, one of which can become a Town Roleblocker (unlimited shots)
    1x Town Vigilante (2 shots)
    1x Town Pupit (2 shots)

    1x Influencer

    1x Mafia Roleblocker (3 shots)
    1x Mafia Strong killer (3 shots)
    1x Mafia Silencer (2 shots)
    1x Mafia Tracker (3 shots)
    1x Mafia Bulletproof (1 shot)

    On theory, I'm satisfied, and ready to have my expectations destroyed by the actual players :P
    @Franconp @Geno How do you feel about things right now? They'll probably check in to see our progress within the next week.
     
  21. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    I think everything's good now, pretty much ready to go.
     
  22. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    The problem with that is not all the players are always around at day end. In HvV most of the time there were 3 or 4 of us during the item distributions. With a lynch on the line the stakes are higher.

    The hints are ok to me.

    And if you keep the blue room closed until D3 or D4? So they can't choose it and give some time to the influencer to target some people. That way he will only have to keep people out of the room for one or two phases. At the start of one of those days you can tell them that the blue room is now open.

    Worse town scenario is D5 even without the influencer:

    worse town

    d1 town lynch 18-1-5
    n1 town kill, vigilante kill 16-1-5
    d2- red room 2 town lynch, vigilante kill 13-1-5
    n2 lovers kill 11-1-5
    D3 – pink room 2 town lynch 9-1-5
    n3 town kill 8-1-5
    D4 – purple room 2 town lynch 6-1-5
    n4 town kill 5-1-5
    D5 - town/neutral lynch is scum win.

    That's not counting the dark room which can kill several players if they don't vote. Even then it's not bad.
     
  23. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    The logistics are awful, haha :(

    Here's what I'll do: I'll just roleblock instead of killing the player who switches votes around. That way, I can punish as many players as I need to without fucking the game up, haha. And it's not like I want to punish them with this room - it's supposed to be a deterrent.

    I considered that, but I think there's a big chance it could backfire. By arbitrarily opening it up, say, on D3, I think it'd create an atmosphere of "Well, alright, that's where we need to go next."

    I think the best way of doing it is keeping it clean, hiding the room in plain sight among the others. That way, the Influencer may end up having a little more trouble, but he'll also have a lot more room to maneuver with his strategies.

    I also think the flavor text will be enough of a deterrent to stop town for going for that room early on. I doubt they'll want their "fates changed" on D2 :P

    I thought I'd mentioned it earlier, but apparently I forgot to - I plan on sealing the Red Room when the Pink Room is selected, and vice versa. I feel like two double lynches in a single game would be overkill. They could end up wrecking both town and scum too quickly.

    :D
     
  24. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    As predicted, Febe just sent me a message to check on our progress, haha :P
     
  25. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    I like that idea better. Way more easy to balance.

    You can also give the players only 3 (or any number that you want) rooms to choose every day. For example:

    D1 they vote between orange, teal or red
    D2 they vote between blue, pink or red
    D3 they vote between pink, dark or purple

    That way you could set the influencer room for an set day forward and also could make it simpler for the players to choose what room they will go for the next day. Easier to choose between 3 options than from 10. I'm fine with the current setup but I just thought about this.

    Also, I don't seem to find this anywhere: What would happen if there is a tie when they have to select rooms?


    That's a good idea.
     
  26. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    I actually thought of that a couple of days ago, but ultimately decided against it because I think I'd end up having too big of an influence in the room choices. I think it'd probably work if I had designed each room as counterparts to others, but the way it stands, I believe the players would feel too constrained and frustrated if, for example, they regretted their choice of one room over another in a particular phase, and the room they ended up missing wasn't up for picking in the following phase.

    While I can relate to the reluctance of throwing the Influencer out there to fend for himself since D1, I also fear that randomizing the selections entirely (another possible solution) could end up hurting one of the two main factions too much depending on the circumstances.

    And frankly, at this point I'm probably a little bit too enamored with the anticipation of seeing what they'll do with such a weird and open setup to change it, haha.

    If people end up liking the core concept of the rooms, though, I'll probably start from scratch with those limitations you've mentioned if I ever work on a sequel.

    You didn't miss it: it's just another thing I forgot to make note of. If there's a tie, the choice is randomized, as it would with a lynch in a setup that rejects "no lynch" as an option.
     
  27. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    I do think it's better to have all the rooms be accessible from the start.
     
  28. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    I like the idea of having a map like this in the opening post:

    [​IMG]

    The players would start in the white room and they only can select the rooms that are next to the one they are now. This is just an example so I didn't checked to see how it would work and the rooms are put at random (also it's really ugly) but it would go like this:

    D1 they start in the white room and they can choose between teal, blue or yellow. Let's say they choose blue.
    D2 they are at blue. White is closed so they must choose between yellow, dark or orange. Let's say they choose orange.
    D3 they are at orange and blue is closed. They can choose between the dark room or the red one (missed a door there). Maybe you can connect orange with grey too.

    That way the players would still be able to have freedom to go where they want, you can setup the map to make them unable to reach the dark room until D3 or 4 and they don't have a lot of options at the start. Also it adds a nice gimmick to the game.

    Maybe for the sequel.
     
  29. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    I'm definitely stealing that for future reference, Fran.
     
  30. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for disappearing, guys. I was stuck in my costume account for a while there, hahaha.

    If you guys are ok with it, I'll ping Pedro and Febe to tell them we're ready for the queue.
     
  31. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was wondering what happened here, but yeah you have my ok.
     
  32. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    Can you add to the spreadsheet an priority order for the actions?

    Pedro will ask for it before the game run and we can check it up now.

    Besides that I'm ok with the setup.
     
  33. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    That's a good idea, Fran. Let's see.

    Purple Room Roleblock (affects Sleepwalker)
    Town Sleepwalker
    Town Roleblocker
    Mafia Roleblocker
    Mafia Strong killer
    Bulletproof
    Town Doctor
    Town Alignment Cop
    Mafia Kill / Town Vigilante
    Town Pupit (overrides silencing)
    Mafia Silencer
    Mafia Tracker
    Town Self-Watcher

    Does this order make sense?
     
  34. Geno

    Geno Well-Known Member

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    I think town and mafia roleblocker should happen at the same time. Aside from that it's great.
     
  35. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    - The strong kill should go before the roleblocks as it can bypass them.

    - The pupit should be after the silencer if it overrides him.

    - The sleepwalker should be after the roleblocks as they can block him.

    - I Agree with Geno and both roleblocks should be used at the same time.

    Can the influencer mark be roleblocked or tracked?
     
  36. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Purple Room Roleblock (affects Sleepwalker)
    Mafia Strong killer
    Town Roleblocker / Mafia Roleblocker
    Town Sleepwalker
    Bulletproof
    Town Doctor
    Town Alignment Cop
    Mafia Kill / Town Vigilante
    Mafia Silencer
    Town Pupit (overrides silencing)
    Mafia Tracker
    Town Self-Watcher

    Thank you, guys. This probably isn’t as confusing as it seems to me, hahaha.

    Fran, the influencer can be tracked, and I thought it’d be good to allow them to be roleblocked as well since people aren’t notified of being marked.
     
  37. Franconp

    Franconp Frank

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    Ok.

    Looks good. I thinks it's finished.
     
  38. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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  39. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    WHO SUMMONS ME

    *reads the thread*

    yay, your game has been approved!! Thanks everyone for assisting Brazil with his game :3
     
  40. Brazil

    Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much, @Geno and @Franconp :)

    Let's hope things don't fall apart :P