Simon Says Design Thread

Discussion in 'Simon Says Design Thread' started by Pedro, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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  2. Sorian

    Sorian Neutral Ascetic 1-Shot BP SK Alignment Cop

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    I figured Roy added me but I didn't feel like switching logins while I was in power rangers :P

    I'll take a look at the game over the weekend

    and totally crack the whip like you did for my game >:D
     
  3. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    noooooooooooo, why would you do that?!

    ---

    So I came up with this idea after seeing Quarantine Mafia be played (wow, how's that for a starting sentence?). A game where the players have a leader role amongst them, and this leader has the power to steer the game in different ways.
    To give everyone a chance of being that leader, I made it so it goes from one person to another every night.

    I also tried to make most of the PRs related one way or another to the Day phase where lynching occurs, turning the Night phases periods where they can just relax for a bit.
     
  4. karkador

    karkador Board Game King

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    I have deleted a lot of Quarantine mafia from my brain, so let's just say we're starting fresh
     
  5. karkador

    karkador Board Game King

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    At first glance, I get the feeling that there could be more cohesion in what the PRs and the game mechanics do. The presence of a lot of powers makes the game look very chaotic.

    For example, most of the Simon powers and the PRs fall into the category of voting, and I'm for the game having a mechanical "theme" to it . However, some Simon powers knock out PRs, some kinda bottleneck the game (the thunderdome power, the "steal someone's vote" power).

    I really want to consider how the Simon powers and the PRs interact. It may be necessary to cut down the options, or make the options public info.

    Just food for thought.
     
  6. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    I plan on letting people know that Simon is a special role and will be immune to death during N1 at the start of the first day.
    Once D1 ends and the first Simon is chosen, I'll share with everyone its list of powers and say they are all 1-use mandates.

    And of course, at the start of each Day I will announce which power is in effect.

    As for the powers themselves, yeah. I gave it the maximum amount of powers it can possibly use in a longest case scenario, so it doesn't become an useless role near endgame. But I wouldn't mind shortening that list of powers, or swapping some of them for any others you may have in mind. I'm up for suggestions!

    edit: if you think the thunderdome is too limiting, it could change into "vote for one of these 3/4 players" instead of 2.
     
    #6 Pedro, Jun 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  7. karkador

    karkador Board Game King

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    I was leaning towards less options for Simon powers because, it's going to become the dominating topic of the game's discussion. Inevitably the players will get into the analysis of who got Simon and why they picked the power they did (as well as the powers they did not pick).

    A key component of any mafia gimmick is how it feeds into the core gameplay (judging player motivations, se voting and diplomacy, etc.). I do like most of these powers, but I wonder what a player's take-away will be from these events, since you are putting them in the hands of a player to decide. Is there a meaningful choice to discuss there?

    For example:

    Imagine there are 4 simon options. 2 are clearly pro-town, 2 are clearly anti-town. Simon chooses the anti-town option. Therefore, the players conclude Simon must have been mafia.
    But if Simon's identity is secret and can never be known, the opportunity to make this about judging player motivation just kinda goes nowhere.

    Of course, the options should be more ambiguous (and I think they currently are, but maybe more bad than good).
     
  8. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    Simon's identity is not secret, people will always know who the current one is. But I don't want to make the choice for the next Simon public because then the mafia can just NK whoever was chosen, since there are no protection roles in this setup.

    What I could do is make Simon choose the day's power publicly. Say after the night actions are locked but before the new day begins, I can allow people to talk (and just talk) in the game thread. It would be at that time that the new Simon chooses the next power as a public command, and everyone can see it and perhaps influence the choice. Would that be better?
     
  9. Sorian

    Sorian Neutral Ascetic 1-Shot BP SK Alignment Cop

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    I think the more important thing is making sure that there are no simon commands that ONLY mafia can benefit from. If it's public who is Simon and public what command they chose then mafia can never pick those options until they are the only ones left and that also causes a scenario where either mafia can never hit the benefit they want before losing or giving them a big advantage right at the very end.

    The glaring one is the secret vote. Town never benefits from that since all voting is done after day end and mafia can always just vote in a block on whoever they want. I've sat here for like five minutes trying to think of a way to move the needle on this just slightly to town sided so that a case could be made for why a town player would ever choose it but I can't think of a way to blind the vote in a way that makes sense but I do think there is some way to redeem it.

    The other one that I don't think is redeemable is the alignment check reveal on the flip. It reminds me too much of the mechanic Geno gave me in HvV where I got a double vote that I had no control of and could just be picked out on the basis of a mechanic that no one really had control of. Scum can't do much that day to stay out of sights at all and could end up caught out not because someone made a choice (like a cop check) but just because the game forced town into an all win situation.

    Otherwise, I think the rest are fine. I won't say I like thunderdomes but they have their place and I think it can work here. I guess my one worry overall with this one and a few others. Simon would need to turn off in mylo/lylo. Scum pretty much wins automatically if they get Simon in those phases as long as thunderdome, everyone is a doublevoter, or vote steal are still active.

    As far as the actual game minus the simon mechanics, it's not crazy at all and is already balanced. Is the governor just a straight auto no lynch or do they get to choose someone too?
     
  10. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    Okay; I'll change the way Simon works so that it has fewer powers/its powers are depleted before mylo. It's just gonna be simpler that way, for the best probably ^^

    ---

    The Governor has an auto no lynch.

    ---

    Rover, let me know if you'd prefer this:
     
  11. Sorian

    Sorian Neutral Ascetic 1-Shot BP SK Alignment Cop

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    Aside from just giving the thread more time to talk, I don't really see the difference in it being a public command or not since you announce to the thread what that days Simon ability was anyway. Or am I misreading?
     
  12. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    It's not that different, but the whole group could talk it out and try to decide on the next power, and also get a feel for the new Simon since it'd be the first time they'd see it. I don't mind one way or the other, myself.
     
  13. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    @karkador I'm waiting for your answer to the question above so I can start changing simon's powers
     
  14. karkador

    karkador Board Game King

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    If we're assuming the list of Simon powers is public knowledge, I think people will chat about what Simon should do next, regardless.

    Pick Simon at night, announce who got it and their elected power at the start of the next day. The game can discuss Simon's choice (if Simon is still alive) afterwards. Actually, they will discuss it even more if Simon dies. I err on the side of mafia talk being about events that already happened, not speculation on a number of possible future outcomes, so I think this is the right order of events. Also, make Simon's thing happen first at night, just in case.

    Something I didn't consider before is the random process of picking Simon. What happens if the same player gets picked more than once? If you re-roll a player that already got Simon, the game could run into a corner where mafia is killing players who haven't gotten Simon and thus the Simon RNG gets more predictable. Something to consider.
     
    #14 karkador, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  15. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    Okay. Yes, the list is going to be public knowledge, and at the start of each day players will know who the current Simon is and which is the power in place.
    I already took care of repeated Simons; a player can only be Simon again after *every living player* has been it. I will tell them every night who are the possible choices for the next Simon.

    ---

    Now I'm going to do the power changes we talked earlier, like removing the secret vote and the alignment reveal. I'll ping y'all once that's done, tomorrow at the latest o/
     
  16. karkador

    karkador Board Game King

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    Hmm, not sure how the math works out, but would there be enough days in the game to cycle through every player?
     
  17. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    I did that on purpose, to reduce the chances of someone being it twice, and increase the chances of everyone being part of the gimmick. The game will at most have 7 days, the only way someone can be it twice is if everyone who hasn't been it have died already.
     
  18. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    Oh, something I missed yesterday: The reason I want the next one to be chosen during the Day is that because if I ask the current Simon to choose the next one during the Night (24h), I might not have enough time after their response to contact the new Simon and also ask which power they want to use, even more so if both players live in different time zones.

    Picking the next one during the Day gives me ~72h to figure that out and it's easier/fairer for people.
     
  19. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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  20. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    @Sorian @karkador it's been almost one month since I changed the game, I'm waiting for your comments/suggestions
     
  21. karkador

    karkador Board Game King

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    Hi!

    Comment in no particular order:


    1) Raise the number of Simon power options to 6. If you calculate the max number of Simon uses to be 5, you want 6 powers to at least give that last Simon an option between two things.

    2) Each Simon option is only available once per game, right? Otherwise, ignore comment #1.



    On the topic of Simon picking a new Simon / SImon passing to a new player, let me clarify some things.
    So tentatively, the timing flow of Simon is:

    Day start: Simon's chosen power revealed. Old Simon chooses New Simon via PM (exception: D1 Simon is voted by town, meaning he's chosen at Day end). New Simon is revealed to the town.
    Day end: Old Simon deactivates. If New Simon is killed or lynched, another New Simon is chosen by RNG. (end of D1, Simon power list is revealed)

    Night start: New Simon activates.
    Night: Simon chooses power.
    Night end: If Simon is killed, another Simon is chosen by RNG.


    Is the following scenario possible?

    - One night's actions, in order: Simon-A chooses a power. Simon-A is targeted and dies. RNG chooses a Simon-B, who gets no power choice (locked in from Simon-A). Simon-B wakes up next day, and chooses another Simon.
     
  22. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    1 - I'll think of a final option for it.

    2 - Yep.

    And yeah, you got the flow right. And that scenario is indeed possible, but I wouldn't lock the choice from Simon-A. I'd tell Simon-B that "Simon-A chose this power, and unless you decide to choose something else, that will be activated at the start of the next day".
     
  23. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    I added a sixth option, way harmless and neutral compared to the others, which is opening up the game thread during the next night so people can keep talking (but not voting or using any kind of power).
     
  24. Fireblend

    Fireblend ABLF

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    Hey o/

    I took a look at the game and the discussion so far. I think it's a neat concept and in its current form (considering I haven't seen the previous ones) it seems like a simple game, with a core gimmick and easy to understand roles.
    I don't know if there's anything specific you want me to take a look at Pedro, but here's what I came up with after my initial inspection:

    I don't like Simon powers #2 or #6 (no turbo and night discussion). All of the other powers make the decision seem like an ugly choice; as Simon you're going to really have to justify your choice to town on the following day, and as town you really want those powers on your side or you're going to really screw up. Those 2 however, are very tame in comparison (like you said in the case of #6 above), and even though they get exhausted after one use I feel like they will rob a couple (probably the first 2) days from the drama the Simon role is supposed to stir up in the game because Simon is going to "cowardly" choose one of those "purely altruistic" ones rather than the ones where they'll be put on the spot.

    Other than that I don't think I have much to add. Let me know what you think.
     
  25. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    I think I'm okay with that, febe. Early on, Simon had a few powers that could have been seen as anti-town, and those were certainly powers a town Simon would not want to choose. But the two you mentioned aren't alignment indicative (the new term the cool kids are using in mafia these past seasons), they just serve to prolong discussion. If Simon chooses any of them while there are other options left, they should be aware the other players will grow suspicious of them.

    As for the high drama aspect, I really couldn't think of other powers that were
    1. voting (or at least day phase) related
    2. impactful
    3. not scummy

    So I'm fine with these 6. And there wasn't anything specific, just wanted to hear another opinion on the game ^^ If you both think there's nothing wrong/possibly harmful, then I'm cool
     
  26. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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    also, i said i'd post this reply on Monday but I'm still not used to how much i need to study for these uni tests. Sorry for taking so long!
     
  27. Fireblend

    Fireblend ABLF

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    Alrighty then! I think it's not that I'd call them alignment indicative, it's that I, regardless of alignment, would naturally gravitate towards the 2 that look the least "impactful" to avoid suspicion/questioning later on. But I think the fact that each effect can only be used once and there's still some drama in there offsets that contrast somewhat. That was the only observation I could think of, so if there are no further comments I'm ok with it :D
     
  28. Pedro

    Pedro The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
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  29. karkador

    karkador Board Game King

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    Left some comments in the doc