Design & discussion

Pedro

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
This was a design reviewed on our Discord instead of this forum, below is a transcript of the discussion:


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RetroMG 11/04/2017
@Sophia Or you could tell him here.​

Sophia 11/04/2017
That works too.

But yeah. Two things I see so far.

As far as the Scum Ninja goes, scum basically have two options as far as I see: Fire it early and hope that RNG fools the tracker, or fire it late assuming the tracker doesn't die before then.

If the tracker dies, then it's basically two scum goons vs town, especially given the simple nature of the game.

The other thing is, the neutral is kind of odd. It's basically a survivor with a quick way out. Ultimately, she only really needs to tag one player to win.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
Yeah, I don't see a high chance of the ninja kill being useful​

Sophia 11/04/2017
The only scenario I can see the ninja kill being useful is(edited)

Both the Ninja and the Tracker make it to endgame​

Pedro 11/04/2017
Yep, only on endgame​

Sophia 11/04/2017
I mean

it's not bad design so to speak

But basically, the longer scum go without seeing something in the informative role family, the more likely they are to use it.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
Since the bodyguard can only defend someone once, that first rule isn't as necessary as it would be for a Doctor​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm?​

Pedro 11/04/2017
"can't target anyone twice in a row"

They can't defend someone twice to begin with​

Sophia 11/04/2017
I assume that means, and correct me if I'm wrong @Bear, that they can't say

Bowser targets a gooma > Nothing happens > Bowser can't target the same gooma next night

Even if they fail, they can't target the same target twice.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
Yeah, but why?

What's the benefit of adding that rule​

Bear 11/04/2017
sorry, I'm dealing with an ERA-mod issue, I'll be back ASAP​

Pedro 11/04/2017
Don't worry, burbs <3​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Oh, sorry for pinging you then. We'll have lots of feedback for you when you get back

It weakens the Bodyguard power a little bit, as they have to be careful who they target.

Oh

I see

It prevents follow the cop so to speak?

Well

No

Yeah I'm not sure the target anyone twice in a row thing is needed.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
^^

I'm sure we had similar Neutrals in past games, let me look it up​

RetroMG 11/04/2017
Yes

I can't think of which game, but yes​

Sophia 11/04/2017
8t 2s 1n 6t 2s 1n 4t 2s 1n 2t 2s 1n (Lylo) 8t 2s 1n 7t 2s 0n (Neutral dies over night or is lynched on the day phase) 5t 2s 0n 3t 2s 0n (Lylo)(edited)​

RetroMG 11/04/2017
We had one for Gafia 2, but it got nixed.​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Neutral becomes a Kingmaker of-sorts if they make it to endgame and either Bowser or Mario (But not both) is alive.

well wait no, maybe not.

Hmm,...

thinks.

If the netural has tagged one or the other, and both make it to endgame, then the netural needs to convince the faction they didn't tag to take out their target.

So the Neutral works, but I'd add a stipulation and expicitly not tell them if they successfully tagged one player or the other, but not both.

I assume Burb accounted for that already, but just saying it.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
aah, too many games to check lol​

RetroMG 11/04/2017
lol sorry Bowlie

I figured you'd be good since this is a small game.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
nono

I'm sure we had similar Neutrals in past games, let me look it up
too many games to check every neutral​

RetroMG 11/04/2017
ohhh​

Pedro 11/04/2017
I saw a few variations of a "Tagger", but tagging always did something else

It's an easy neutral role, and for a newbie-friendly game that's probably for the best

If the netural has tagged one or the other, and both make it to endgame, then the netural needs to convince the faction they didn't tag to take out their target.
If that failed, Peach would still have another chance to tag the remaining target during the night. But yeah, they can influence the outcome of the game

good catch, soph!​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Well no

It's Lylo at endgame

short of Bowser protecting someone​

Pedro 11/04/2017
oh, i missed the "endgame" part ;x​

Sophia 11/04/2017
The neutral basically has to figure out who they tagged, and kill the one they didn't tag to win​

Pedro 11/04/2017
yep​

Sophia 11/04/2017
It's an unlikely endgame scenario (the Neutral would win or die before then)

but if it does come up, it could prove to make the game complex for that neutral​

Bear 11/04/2017
k, going to read this chat now​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Was just writing up a TLDR for you

TLDR: 1-shot scum Ninja basically boils down to "Use it early for RNG or use it late for guranteed" and becomes useless if the tracker dies before it's used. Neutral has it pretty easy to win, but can find itself in a unique spot should it endgame with both Bowser and Mario alive with one of them tagged.(edited)​

Bear 11/04/2017
the twice in a row means that, twice in a row

in bowser targets sophia on N1, they can't target her on N2, but can again on N3

of course, the game is going to be short

so there won't be many night

nights

this rule is on place to make sure the bodyguard can't just sit on the tracker​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah

I think I get the point of it now

Well

Hmm

Hold up​

Bear 11/04/2017
with neutral, I'm open on changing it to whatever

it was 100% designed just with "what would be funny?" on mind, which isn't a good way to design anything​

Sophia 11/04/2017
If the tracker roleclaims on D1, Bowser protects it on N1, dies.

The tracker doesn't live again to D3​

Bear 11/04/2017
most likely not.​

Sophia 11/04/2017
I'm just wondering if the rule has a purpose​

Bear 11/04/2017
it's a rule I have always used on doctors in my past games, but it can be changed​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Well

I'm just trying think of a situation

where the Bodyguard discovers the Tracker

and the Mafia don't.​

Bear 11/04/2017
I'm just thinking of loopholes that I want to be plugged just in case​

Sophia 11/04/2017
I don't think there's too many loopholes.

I don't see any

Just a few interesting game scenarios that need to be taken accounted for. It's pretty balance as far as I can tell.​

Bear 11/04/2017
let's talk about the neutral​

Sophia 11/04/2017
So for the neutral

it's basically a unique take on the survivor/tagger role.​

Bear 11/04/2017
yeah. with 'need to tag both' I felt that it's bit too easy for her to lose

if one of those two dies before she has tagged them(edited)

especially due to how bowser functions​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm.​

Bear 11/04/2017
the role can be scrapped in favor of something else

I'm not too bent on keeping it.​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Proposal: What about adding Luigi to the tag list, and simply requiring two of the three to be tagged?​

Bear 11/04/2017
that includes two of the two scum​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Point

I'm not sure what lore reasons why she'd want to tag MAgikoopa or Koopa.​

Bear 11/04/2017
or goomba :P

those flavor names can be changed, I just threw in what first came to mind​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Well I was thinking power roles, but yeah.

The big issue with the neutral is I think it's a bit too easy to win, maybe?​

Bear 11/04/2017
it's hard to design a neutral for short game as this​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah.

Ultimately it's gonna end up a case of "The neutral needs to tag Mario"​

Bear 11/04/2017
I can change her to just a survivor

"she just wants out of this mess"​

Sophia 11/04/2017
That might be a good idea.

Although

there is an interesting dynamic

if the game ends up in Mylo with just Mario alive.​

Bear 11/04/2017
might as well try to simplify the game slightly

since this design is made to be for new players​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah, survivor for Princess Peach I think works.

If you're going for a design for new players, that's probably your best bet.

If the neutral is a survivor or something else, you have a pretty good beginner game.

At the same time I kind of want to keep the neutral because it's unique

But you'd have to like change Bowser for it.​

Bear 11/04/2017
should I add her 1-shot BP?​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm

@RetroMG @Pedro what do you tow think? Should he keep the neutral as is? Turn it into a survivor? If it's a survivor does it need 1-shot BP?(edited)​

Bear 11/04/2017
I already changed her role in the sheet​

RetroMG 11/04/2017
There we go, then​

Bear 11/04/2017
I do think that her role is either too hard or too easy in the og version, there is no middle ground

and the difficulty is out of the player's hands, depends on if mario or bowser die early​

Sophia 11/04/2017
I think if Bowser wasn't a bodyguard

then it would work fine.

But bowser being a bodyguard is the issue because the most like scenario is that he'll get taken out early​

Bear 11/04/2017
I kinda don't want a doctor this time because I do want the game to have bit of flavor to it

so just the usual doctor+tracker is kinda seen and done many times​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Yeah I hear ya on that.

I like her as a survivor.​

Bear 11/04/2017
I'll keep her with no BP for now. I'll wait on retro and pedro to chime in on that​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Alright​

RetroMG 11/04/2017
I'm okay with no BP​

Pedro 11/04/2017
sorry, talking with family

reads chat

I personally dislike survivors, but that's a more balanced role than the "tagger"

I'm okay with it as it is, no BP

And I see how the consecutive rule would be mandatory for a Doctor, but for a Bodyguard it isn't needed​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Hmm

The short length of the game means

the tracker will probably get three nights at best, assuming they survive.

I don't see any scenario where the bodyguard a) figures out they're the tracker and the Mafia don't and b) protects them for all three nights for a 2t 2s 1n/3t 2s endgame.(edited)

This is also assuming that the tracker gets useful results for all three nights.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
and in a scenario where the Tracker roleclaims publicly, Mafia could use their ninja kill just to be safe

so even if the Bodyguard protects the Tracker, they wouldn't be able to track anyone during the night​

Sophia 11/04/2017
Well more accurately the tracker would not get positive results on scum

They could still get positive results on others.​

Pedro 11/04/2017
Yeah, sorry​

Pedro 11/15/2017
Any news on this, burbs?​

Bear 11/16/2017
Not much. Since I have no idea when we are in spotlight​
 
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Pedro

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
Pedro 01/22/2019
enters tomb, uses shovel to dig up dirt, clears the area, turns the flashlight on hey @Bear , remember this thing? As I was looking for games to put into the adoption program, this game came to my mind. I wanted to ask you if you would be willing to give it to the program so someone else can run it.​

Bear 01/22/2019
sure. but the review never got finished

but this game could be a good fit, since its 13p​

Pedro01/22/2019
did it not? In my mind, it was finished :thinking:

let me read the chat and see what we did not do​

Bear 01/22/2019
I think it had some ironing out to do​

Pedro 01/22/2019
Or even add it to the queue so you can run it yourself in the next seasons. It's been a year since the game was finished (well, almost finished) and for all we know it can take another year until we enter the spotlight, i think it's a shame to have this nice game here unused for so long(edited)​

Bear 01/22/2019
hmm​

Pedro 01/22/2019
Seems like the only item still left to be discussed was the Scum Ninja, it could maybe use more than 1 shot

But beyond that, I'm okay with how it is

Still, would you prefer giving it to adoption or running it yourself sometime in the future?​

Sophia 01/23/2019
God called, and nobody answered.

Pedro called, and Sophia is here.(edited)​

Pedro 01/23/2019
\o/​

Bear 01/24/2019
hmm

I have love boat 3 approved. I'm thinking about scrapping Death Note for now, and instead start working on sequel for mafiera potentially

between those, I'd give mario mafia for adoption​

Pedro 01/24/2019
retro said he's working on a mafiera game as well, maybe see if you can help with his design instead of making a new one​

Pedro 01/27/2019
let me paste the sheet again here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17nZfNv1uhNT2vlO-EO3jaz1YqgDjD1borqu9_rlZzWA/edit#gid=0

@Sophia did you manage to take a look at it?​

Sophia 01/27/2019
I haven't

Sorry, I've been kinda busy

At first glance, I don't see anything wrong

Town might be a bit powerful tho

I would maybe give the scum something else besides Ninja. Something light.

But other then that it's pretty balanced.(edited)​

Pedro 01/27/2019
Would a 1-shot RB to the other scum member be enough to compensate, you think?​

Sophia 01/28/2019
Hmm

Might be too powerful

But then again

If endgame ends up being

thinks

Yeah, actually, that might work?

If both scum survive to endgame, then whatever power roles town has remaining are neutralized with 1-shot Ninja and 1-shot RB(edited)

But two of the towner players can use their power as much as they want so. Hm.​

Pedro 01/28/2019
Yeah, though the Bodyguard can effectively only use their power once, and the neighborizer might as well be talking with an enemy, so the Tracker is the only one that's more useful in the long run

I'm fine with the 1-shot RB, up to you if you want more​

Sophia 01/28/2019
It definitely shouldn't be more powerful than 1-shot RB

Maybe ask Bear how he feels. He might have a different idea.

It feels like a pretty well balanced game tho, other than that​

Pedro 01/29/2019
@Bear what do you think about the above?​

Bear 01/30/2019
I'll take a look today​

Pedro 01/30/2019
anything, @Bear ?​

Bear 01/30/2019
Hmmm

A 1-shot rb eh?

That would counter the bodyguard

That's fine

But I actually have something else I want maybe changed

The tracker needs to be 2 shot at most

Because town has only bodyguard who moves every night

So anything else tracker woule catch is scum acting

Hvaing infinity-shot tracker would be too powerful for town

@Pedro​

Pedro 01/30/2019
hmm, true

There's a way higher chance of him catching baddies, you're right.

I'm okay with changing the Tracker to a 2-shot, and the Goon to a 1-shot RB

you too @Sophia ? If so, we can call this greenlit :confetti:​

Sophia 01/31/2019
Yes, that's fine.

Good call, Bear.​

Pedro 01/31/2019
nice \o/ I wrote basic role PMs (i'll let whoever adopts this game write the flavor for it) on the sheet. If you two are okay with them, we can call this design done and put it into adoption​

Bear 02/05/2019
@Pedro why is the peach wincon "win by being last player alive"

isn't it supposed to be "survive till the end of the game"​

Pedro 02/05/2019
oh, duh

you're right, don't know why i wrote that

i apologize​

Bear 02/05/2019
other than that I think the role PMs are fine

no need to apologize lol​

Pedro 02/05/2019
done, fixed o/​

Bear 02/05/2019
ok, I think the PMs are good now​

Pedro 02/07/2019
do you think the PMs are good, @Sophia ?​

Sophia 02/07/2019
I haven't checked them, sorry.

Where are they located?(edited)​

Pedro 02/07/2019

Sophia 02/07/2019
Jesus christ that's almost unreadable

I found out the hard way with Persona Mafia not to use spreadsheets for role PMs, fyi

Hmm

Guess that's not too bad if you click on them​

Pedro 02/07/2019
That's good advice, though

I wanted to keep everything in one place, but maybe a normal text document is better​

Sophia 02/07/2019
What I do

is make a thread for each PM

on Outer Mafia​

Pedro 02/07/2019
Yeah, I remember you doing that with Cluedo. It worked well​

Sophia 02/07/2019
This actually isn't that bad tho

It's better than what we did for Persona Mafia, because the UI expands

The Ninja's role PM is kinda weird in it's formatting

But only when you see it alongside the roleblocker PM​

Pedro 02/07/2019
let me see it​

Sophia 02/07/2019
As Mafia, you share a factional kill you can perform once per night by posting the command KILL: <Player name> on your private thread. You can instead post the command Ninja: <Player name> to perform the kill while being undetected.
This command will replace the normal factional kill on that night.
Click to expand...


Maybe just add a space here

so it's

As Mafia, you share a factional kill you can perform once per night by posting the command KILL: <Player name> on your private thread. You can instead post the command Ninja: <Player name> to perform the kill while being undetected.
Click to expand...

This command will replace the normal factional kill on that night.

And it'd be fine.​

Pedro 02/07/2019
done!​

Sophia 02/07/2019
Alternatively, put it as part of the same paragraph

As Mafia, you share a factional kill you can perform once per night by posting the command KILL: <Player name> on your private thread. You can instead post the command Ninja: <Player name> to perform the kill while being undetected. This command will replace the normal factional kill on that night.
Click to expand...

Either way works.

"Yourself" doesn't need to be capitalized in the survivor PM.

I usually prefer "You are aligned with only yourself" instead for wording.

Not a big deal tho, I'm just being picky

Beyond that, it all looks fine.​

Pedro 02/07/2019
I'm picky when i review PMs as well, it's not a problem at all

let me change that too

okay! Since it seems everyone is okay with the design, I'll call it approved and ready to be adopted \o/​
 
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Pedro

Pedro

The Last Airbender is actually a great movie
This design has been given to the Adopt-a-design program. Here is some information about it, for its new owner:

Originally created by Grizzly, and reviewed by Sophia, RetroMG, and Pedro.
The review started on November 4th, 2017 and finished on February 7th, 2019 with its approval.

Here is the design sheet you should use, with the role PMs and a space for you to track the night actions in your game: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17nZfNv1uhNT2vlO-EO3jaz1YqgDjD1borqu9_rlZzWA/edit#gid=0
 
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