Door 5 - Casino
- Thread starter Faddy
- Start date
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
I’m assuming it won’t be. I also really doubt scum would try to double hammer if they’re both in here.
Faddy
of, having, or involving transitory whims
Welcome to the Exclusion phase.
You will have 24 hours to decide who among your group to exclude from the game.
Vote as usual using the highlight tag.
If you don't want to exclude anyone use the command
Vote: No One
Majority is 3. A tie will result in no one being excluded.
You will have 24 hours to decide who among your group to exclude from the game.
Vote as usual using the highlight tag.
If you don't want to exclude anyone use the command
Vote: No One
Majority is 3. A tie will result in no one being excluded.
Verelios
Were-elios
And I'm wondering how you got to that conclusion because it seems self conscious.
Faddy
of, having, or involving transitory whims
You may vote as many times as you want.
Majority will end the phase.
Excluded players will have their alignment reveal in the ERA thread once both Rooms have completed their Exclusion Phase.
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
Okay, I’ll elaborate further. Your wording in those is a part of it. In your post to me, you say “already separating you from three people”. The “already”, as well as the “hm” gave the post a flippant vibe to me. I got a similar vibe from your post to Kopite with the ellipses as well as the “you mean”. The posts have the same air and they’re about similar subjects- our room preferences. This bothered me, especially as you misconstrued what I was saying to begin with: I was pretty clear that I didn’t think we needed to split by activity, so I only cared about two people to begin with. That’s very different than three.
I’m sorry if this all sounds banal, but I didn’t intend to need to go into this much detail for something I admitted wasn’t very concrete from the get-go.
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
Acknowledged.
saenima
Not Aeleus
Cheers.
Who are the suspect ones in your opinion? I assume zipped and someone else?
Verelios
Were-elios
Well, that's elaborate. I mean, I guess I can see where you're coming from now but it's a reach. My post to Kopite was a lot more purposeful since his tone seemed like him being town, hence bolstering town's voting block, was apparent, which it wasn't. It does seem like you feel attacked by my post though.
We don't have too much to go on, so right now I perceive it as the ones who seem to be trying to go under the radar. empressdonna is the big one, and I'm also not sure about Bronson. I don't get that feeling from Zipped, but I'm wary of Kopite.
After MafiEra, I'm also side eyeing Natiko, which is partly why I wanted to see him with Donna. Curious to see what comes of their room.
Verelios
Were-elios
@FluxWaveZ What do you think of Zipped's pre-emptive "I'm a coaster" and "Who's going to lynch me" humor from page 1?
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
Bronson, I’ve never played with before IIRC. That makes him interesting to me. I have played with Donna before, but I haven’t been too sure what to feel about her this game. She was posting early on but I didn’t have much of a read. Zipped I began to feel pretty okay about. Kopite, I’m not sure. Tbh I was very interested to see what door he picked. I’m a little surprised he chose the other one honestly. Verelios and I were pretty notably clashing at the end, so I kind of thought he might want to see what was going on with us since we didn’t get to finish in the main thread.
Weird, but didn't make any kind of deal out of it because it feels like one of those beginning of D1 comments people would latch onto for easy prey. Could be a reference to Mansion; I didn't read that one yet.
Though, I don't like comments like those because it's the type where you want to say, "It's too scummy to actually be from scum, so then he must be town." Feels like it could be made to manipulate people into thinking that way. So one would have to then determine if scum would be ballsy enough to do that in a game like this, where there are only 2 of them.
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
I didn’t really peek at mansion, so that could be it.
saenima
Not Aeleus
I'm leaning somewhat town but that might be because we were very much in agreement on the first day. Then again i saw his play on MafiEra and he pocketed town hard. I don't really have any strong reason to doubt him so far though. His voting intentions reflected mine and the reasons he gave for partner choice was sound.
On the other hand, Donna was mighty quick to follow Apollo into what would be a coasting room and Bronson did as well. His reasoning is whatever, not really suspicious per se but not a strong one either. I don't think both are scum but could be something to hold on to depending on what happens in the future.
saenima
Not Aeleus
Why Kopite? Only post count or do you have anything else?
saenima
Not Aeleus
For context, me zipped bronson and kopite were on the mansion. If anyone feels there's something to that. Zipped's play on the first day there was erratic and extremely suspicious, every single time he posted he changed rooms. It was just noise but it got him nearly townkilled.
Verelios
Were-elios
I'm just somewhat worried about the other room composition, where it seems almost foregone that Nat's going to direct conversation, which isn't ideal. I hope someone else keeps notes at least.
I forgot Kopite had posted this:
Also, because there were a couple of "concern" posts I didn't like. Talking about how the game was hard to figure out and that it would be easy for scum to coast, or that he was frustrated with the lack of scum hunting. Yet he didn't answer some people's questions and didn't participate much during the selection phase for that purpose. I didn't like his idea of separating scum into both rooms, either, but that's a personal thing. Doing so would also lead to the possibility of both of them being lynched, after all.
That goes in line with his decision to go to Door 4 instead of ours.
Because he's the Ninth Man.
Also, because there were a couple of "concern" posts I didn't like. Talking about how the game was hard to figure out and that it would be easy for scum to coast, or that he was frustrated with the lack of scum hunting. Yet he didn't answer some people's questions and didn't participate much during the selection phase for that purpose. I didn't like his idea of separating scum into both rooms, either, but that's a personal thing. Doing so would also lead to the possibility of both of them being lynched, after all.
saenima
Not Aeleus
I'm gonna answer this in several ways because i'm having a hard time parsing all of it into something tangible.
If i had to guess based on probability there's a strong chance there is one. I doubt there are two, as the vote was decided by me, you and 2 players on the other room. This matters to me because of the following:
I don't read any of you as particularly scummy right now. The players i'm kinda giving second looks (Bronson and Zipped) are on the other room. Which tells me at least one of them is over there. Probably. Scum could go two ways about this first room, either try to stay together to win a vote or hide in separate rooms to coast along. I have no idea right now which way i fall on that line of thought.
Finally, gun to head and with certain knowledge that there absolutely is scum in our room i'd go between apollo and verelios, not because i feel scum in there but because i'm leaning town on you more than on them at the moment. Don't get too comfortable though, i watched MafiEra and haven't forgotten :)
It's a crapshoot right now and we really need more activity and info.
Heh, well I did start as town in MafiEra, and was converted against my will.
I'm less sure that we do have scum in this group, but I agree that if I had to choose, it's either Apollo or Verelios. How I feel is that, for this first selection phase, scum wouldn't care too much about the group compositions. They'd just go with the general opinion, and possibly slightly deviate to not make it seem like they're sheeping too hard. There'd be no reason for them to stand out strongly supporting or going against one composition over another unless that was the general vibe of things.
For that, plus some other reasons (some of them similar to what Apollo said of Verelios previously), I'd be inclined to vote Verelios.
In fact:
Vote: Verelios
I'm less sure that we do have scum in this group, but I agree that if I had to choose, it's either Apollo or Verelios. How I feel is that, for this first selection phase, scum wouldn't care too much about the group compositions. They'd just go with the general opinion, and possibly slightly deviate to not make it seem like they're sheeping too hard. There'd be no reason for them to stand out strongly supporting or going against one composition over another unless that was the general vibe of things.
For that, plus some other reasons (some of them similar to what Apollo said of Verelios previously), I'd be inclined to vote Verelios.
In fact:
Vote: Verelios
You mean when I said that your vote was out there? Well, I find it at least intriguing when the day ends and someone's vote is just out there on its own, without an attempt to actually make a difference for EoD. The person will face less scrutiny when it comes to the major decisions made throughout the game like that.
You said that you'd be okay with MOPS, so what drove you to specifically vote for M instead of voting for S or O, which already had 1 vote placed on them? That would have tied them with the lead, instead of the lead at the time still being N, which you were not for.
Then the rest comes from either vibes of being too agreeable, or the pot shots Apollo mentioned like:
Towards Kopite. Or:
Towards Zipped.
Not sure if I'm married to the idea, though. What do each of you think of a no exclusion this phase?
@Apollo, what do you think of the concept of having a group non exclude for this exclusion phase and the next one to guarantee a 3rd Selection Phase where we can further discuss things, instead of things possibly ending with 4 miss-exclusions?
Verelios
Were-elios
I can't tell if you actually believe this. Me choosing M was because I was okay going in with Nat and Zipped, mostly for reasons I've outlined above, and the choices at the time were mostly 2-1-1-1, so where would my vote be ineffectual? Nat chose R and Kopite and Sae jumped on that ship with the quickness, which is...odd, given what we talked about activity, but whatever. I didn't agree with this room comp or N so what were you expecting?
I mean, even between comps that I'd be okay with shouldn't it be obvious that I prefer one over others? At 1 vote for each there's still a chance my preferred composition gets picked.
Still stand by them, and I wouldn't call them pot shots. Miscontruing them as shade is fine, but don't be hypocritical because I can point out posts where you've thrown shade too. Like the one you literally made about me before coming in here.
Would like to hear how I've been too agreeable though.
An exclusion gives us the most information for next selection so regardless of who, I think it should be done.
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
Well I’m not inherently opposed to not excluding, I suppose. Your plan would require us actually doing it twice though which might be difficult to convince others to.
First thing is that I disagree with this perspective. Especially with the structure we have now, excluding town will tell us very little. We'll end up going into the next selection phase going, "well, we thought they were scum..." and it'll go from there. If none of us are truly scum, I do not think it's worth arbitrarily excluding someone. If anything, it'll unnecessarily implicate all of us going forward. Deciding not to have anyone excluding will give us just as much information here; we can't play around with exclusions in this game just for the sake of information.
Straight up, the way it seems now, if we're excluding someone it's either you or Apollo. I don't think there'll be something to convince me to vote for saenima right now. That's admittedly presumptuous, though, my exclusion could always come out of nowhere, too.
Okay, but that preference is meaningless when there were really only two options by the end of the day which you could have influenced. Like, looking at the thread, I don't even know which you had a preference for: N or R? You say you didn't like either, but surely you'd weigh one over the other considering how significantly they differ from each other? And with that preference, you could have weighed in when both were tied near the end of the selection phase.
Well, it's also given a scenario in which there are nothing but miss-exclusions. We'd be in a fantastic spot if none of us were scum, and the second group managed to exclude scum.
saenima
Not Aeleus
To be clear, this was my post at the time:
This was an hour and a half before EOD and sure enough i wasn't available until after EOD. And i had said long before this that Q was my ideal choice but O and R were to my liking as well. I didn't jump on any train like you're implying. Q wasn't happening so i moved on to R which was gaining traction, before i went to do irl stuff.
Verelios
Were-elios
You're quite confident about not being excluded Flux, why is that? And for the record, I think everyone besides me in here could be scum. Saying that there's possibly 4 town and we'd be ME wildly is WIFOM bullshit. I disagree that NE today is best because we don't have any information to make an informed decision, seeing as how that's going to be the case for the other group too. Even if it's me, I'd hope the town in here records everyone's reasoning and brings it back to the thread so town knows who did what.
Did you really think N was going to be chosen when everyone else but those voting for it weighed in saying it was a bad idea? Don't be disingenuous, N wasn't going to happen.
That's a fairy tale, and at this moment you're giving me pause. I'm personally trying not to veer into OMGUS territory, because I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid, but you seemed to have an agenda coming into this room.
One: See who you can exclude. I had conflict with Polly, so that's a +1 in your mind, and you could use her reasoning to scum read me. Setting up further is your 'that vote is strange' post in the main page.
Two: Throw out a vote, create a 'them vs. US' divide with you and Sae on one side, and me and Polly on the other, toss out a NE theory and see if anyone bites. It helps that both Sae and Polly have previously town read you.
This is bullshit for example. Scum would gladly sheep a vote, especially one picking up steam, and you think being the lone vote besides two trains won't attract attention? Like it's doing right now? Hiding inside a train is much easier for scum to do unless they were being daft. Your biggest sticking point is my vote not having an impact, so we won't have much to look back on, which is again bull.
It felt like you were waiting for something to use as a reason to scum read me, placed it out in the thread so you could look back, say that's why I scum read him, then pounced on it.
You're basically saying "Why not R though".
Your other reasoning is lifted whole sale from Nat and Polly.
And you struggle to explain why you feel that way besides shade.
Verelios
Were-elios
You don't see how saying 'I'm okay with this' and jumping once Natiko did was quick, especially when you called it risky earlier?
saenima
Not Aeleus
Wait what did i call risky?
Wair, really? You're not town reading any of us? Why is that? Who are you town reading in this game, then?
And I'm not confident, I'm reading the room. Apollo had the earlier debate with yourself, casting doubt. saenima and Apollo said they slightly town read me, and saenima said he'd vote for you or Apollo. I would vote for you or Apollo. So, obviously, I'd think the more likely conclusion right now would be you or Apollo being excluded, but that's not to say that things can't change. If they did, though, it would come more as a twist than a natural progression of this room's direction.
Why not? It was close to. I could have changed my vote to N, or anyone else could have with a half-hearted argument. It was only 2 votes away from a majority. It in no way seems like an outlandish conclusion.
You're being paranoid or being OMGUS and choosing to ignore what's already been said. From how I see it, you've become the most suspect person in this room, before my vote was placed. And I'm not sure the other two would disagree.
And how is that a fairy tale? Dude, even if they don't exclude scum, we'll still be in a better place if we're all town and we NE. You're saying that I came into this room with an agenda of wanting to exclude someone (which is ironic, because I'm the one seriously considering an NE while you're the one absolutely wanting an exclusion to happen) baselessly, and yes I'd throw out a vote, since it's pretty much having its intended effect right now. When we talk about pressure votes, this one's it, and it's made you talk. It's also made me want to remove my vote less.
The vote was mainly a temp. one, where I was likely going to NE here. But you're being so defensive, that it's hard to think there isn't something here.
It can be both; the nature of this game. Scum could want to sheep (which would also be scrutinized at EoD if their vote was out there), or they could want to not be involved to give the argument you just gave and seem like they're their own person, not aligned with anyone else.
And you're hardly the only person I expressed doubt towards near EoD. For example, I doubted those who voted for N. Which would imply Apollo.
Nope. It's saying, "Why not R or N?" Again, you didn't express a preference in the thread for either. Here, you're indicating that you were preoccupied with how everyone was against that option, so it couldn't possibly be voted in. But it could have been chosen by yourself. Or, R could have been chosen if you were against N. I don't know your preference, and you didn't express it in the thread.
You say this as though I hadn't been thinking this myself when I saw the statements, and that their own replies didn't affirm it in my mind. Though it's tricky to say that now when I didn't state it in the thread itself (as the above to you), but that's how it was. We all don't say what comes to mind as it happens, but we take a look back on all of the events when we can and we highlight why we think someone is X or Y.
Those are yours.
Faddy
of, having, or involving transitory whims
There have questions about rules for this phase .I accept that I didn't clearly set out the rules in the opening post. However please refer to these posts for the rules for this phase.
Verelios
Were-elios
You didn't call putting most of the inactives in one room risky?
I had forgotten to reply to this one in the earlier reply.
I guess I'm thinking of "pot shot" as a synonym to "throwing shade." It's not just about the act of pointing at someone in suspicion, because everyone will do that. But there's something to yours that it stood out to 3 different people. It's like what you're accusing me of, and setting something up for a future exclusion. And when someone points it out, instead of going, "Yeah, I did that and it's because I actually find it suspicious," like I would (and am), it sticks because you launch into this whole defense using semantics and unclear reasoning as to why it's not like what it seems.
Looking back, the point about being too agreeable is off. Or, rather, it changes more towards a neutral stance regarding others later on when it's language like "I agree" or "good idea" that can make me think. There's some of that at the beginning, but there's not an unusual amount of it. I guess it's something that stuck with me until this point, perhaps substantiated with the lack of a hard stance near the day's end (or overall, really).
saenima
Not Aeleus
I did. But voting R is not doing that. Which was what we were talking about. Voting N would have been riskier and that's exactly why i said it was a bad idea and didn't vote for it.
Verelios
Were-elios
As of now, no one. You're all null to me if not scum leaning because you haven't done anything to make me think of you as town. Giving out town signs before d1 ended has always felt like a pocket attempt.
Right, so what you're saying is that if public opinion shifted away from me or Polly it would be manufactured. It's that passive aggressive stance that bothers me. Reading the room is fluid, so are votes. What you're trying to do is box and contain conversation so it moves according to how you want it to, which is iffy as hell.
You could have and I would have changed my vote. I didn't want N, I've already stated that in the main thread.
Perhaps that's true, but it doesn't occlude you having an agenda which makes things easier.
Funnily enough, if you're scum then you'd of course be okay with either. If you NE then you can not only pick off from here in the selection phase, you can muddy waters and possibly ME next exclusion phase. If you ME today then it would be because you were following your gut feelings.
I'm being defensive because I'm town, I know I'm town, but I don't know any of your alignments. On the off chance I get excluded I want town to have as much information in here to take to the next selection. I'd rather think of why this is happening then shut up and let town go through with a ME following someone I suspect doesn't have good intentions.
Are you literally WIFOM right now? What you just said means nothing. This isn't inception, why would scum make their room choice so complicated d1. And I know you're going to reply why wouldn't they, so to stop you there, I'm going to say that's not convincing.
What's your point here? I'm talking about your post on me, and regardless haven't you already set up Apollo as an optional lynch?
Verelios
Were-elios
Not trying to be a jerk, but the next room is just Natiko and four ~kind of coasters.
Verelios
Were-elios
Which three different people are you talking about?
...Or because Natiko literally used the word agreeable at day end. Come on, do you even believe it came as a flash of insight to you?
That's kind of reasonable, but there are also a category of people I would not want to exclude on D1. Those involve the more outspoken ones, the more active posters, and the ones whose ideas I agree with the most. You're just being standoffish for the sake of it.
No, I'm not saying it would be manufactured. I'm saying it would come out of left field. I don't see why that's so crazy; it happens all the time at EoD in any game. A saenima or FluxWaveZ exclusion here would be an example of it.
Box and contain conversation doesn't make sense. If there was a proper argument to exclude saenima, I'd be willing to listen to it just as well as anyone else. I was also open to an NE (though less so now), or Apollo or Verelios exclusion. I'm not creating any narrative here, and I don't like that you're trying to say that I am when I'm just pointing out what's happening.
I must have missed this. Where did you state that you did not want N in the main thread?
Now you're straight up talking nonsense in a blatant attempt to divert suspicion towards you onto me. If I were scum, I'd absolutely want someone excluded this phase and not go for an NE. We're a 9-person game, and you think that I would want the opportunity to extend it any more than it needs to be? I wouldn't give a crap about muddying the waters when I could win during the next exclusion phase by voting for someone here who I know for a fact is town, assume the other room will exclude town, and go from there.
That won't work for me. I had similar exchanges with Fran in Simon, who was scum and yet coasted until the end game because he was just so defensive that he had to be town. Not knowing any of our alignments isn't an excuse to be standoffish, way more defensive than one would expect, and ignore reason, alternate possibilities, and others' perspectives in order to enforce your own. I'm town, and so I'm open to what others are saying. Instead, you're closed and actually trying to steer the direction of things, not me. You took my vote as an invitation to OMGUS and try to turn it around real quick onto me, which doesn't strike me as the attitude town would have when, as you mentioned, you wouldn't know anyone else's alignment, same as me.
If you're town, you're creating a 1v1 town situation which doesn't help either of us. What would have been helpful would be properly measuring arguments and saying why they were wrong, or why they might be right from one perspective but not another. Instead, for everyone who has wondered something about you, you go in all-out defense mode without contemplating why they might be considering what they are, and then try to make them seem more suspect in an OMGUS attempt. It hasn't just been me. That's not town behavior.
An argument of "scum wouldn't do this" means very little, especially when it comes to something like choosing rooms. There's nothing complicated at all about choosing a room which no one else is voting for, and staying with that room until the end of the phase.
And once again, you're trying to tunnel the reasoning instead of being open to different possibilities for how scum would behave. This didn't start as me scum reading you, but you're sure doing all the things for me to be, now.
What I initially wanted to do was no exclude. If not, then what I would have been willing to do was exclude you or Apollo (especially now, since we've heard so little about Apollo and I don't like it). But now, despite Apollo's absence, you're giving me all sorts of bad vibes that I'm not sure I see my vote changing by end of day.
Once again, you make an attempt at arguing that what I'm saying is fabricated instead of taking anything at face value. I don't care about arguing why that is not the case met with an attitude like that.
I straight up said that it's tricky to say that when I didn't state my intentions out loud. Anyone can get away with anything when they state this, which I'm aware of and which I admit. You keep tunneling onto these points that I'm self-aware and open enough to admit are suspicious. Because I have no reason to be so extremely defensive. I should have talked about how those things also stood out to me when it came up, but I don't make mention of everything and sometimes am only reminded when I look back on the thread. And that's an example of it. That's it; I don't need to go all 110% denial like you are in order to save face, and then turn it back on you to make you seem scummier.
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
Things haven’t changed much for me tbh. I still don’t feel great about Verelios, and I think some of his responses to Flux reflect poorly on him- I see him as twisting Flux’s words on occasion. I feel that’s something he did a little of to me back on the main thread, so I definitely don’t like that
Also, if anything, I’d like to hear more from you. When asked about your thoughts of those of us in this room, you deflected to the other room. And a small far as your reads of this room, it basically boiled down to “I town read Flux”.
saenima
Not Aeleus
And N would have put Nat in this room leaving the other room even more quiet. Was there a better choice than R or Q regarding balance? I don't think so.
But this conversation leads nowhere right now, was merely explaining why your suspicion in that case was unfounded.
Verelios
Were-elios
How am I being standoffish for the sake of it when I've just said I haven't made up my mind to segregate votes before the exclusion phase? I'd rather openly admit that anyone other than myself can be scum, both active and inactive posters, so I can make a decision on who to vote without any bias. What you're saying only sounds good to hear, because of course you want talkative people around more than coasters. But I personally don't want to pigeon hole myself into just picking off people I wouldn't mind going forward. So, I don't have a preference for the type of person I wouldn't exclude d1, and that's fine to me.
And I'm still saying that's an odd attitude to have, and then to reiterate again, because saying a Sae and Flux exclusion would be out of left field implies that me or Polly would be 'correct'. We had almost 20 hours to go in the exclusion phase and it seemed reductive.
I'm not trying to attack you man, we're having a conversation. I disagree that you're not trying to box in conversation when you say another way of the day ending would be odd. You disagree that I disagree. I'm not sure why you're acting like I've just blindsided you.
I do believe I said I didn't want inactives in one room, but I might not have said room N specifically. That's my bad.
Huh. This is based on the fact that you're scum and aren't pegged as scum come selection 2 because of ME. If you were, then the proceeding days could go badly. Although there's always the risk of you framing someone else as scum, it's entirely possible to want to NE if you think of it from scum's perspective of not only being careful but directing the selection's flow.
That's an isolated case, and I wouldn't react like that. I don't know your alignment so I'm going to approach what you say with some suspicion, and that goes for anyone. It just so happens that I don't think you're being entirely sincere in this case, and why I think that is I don't trust your argument.
What are you talking about? You're twisting your own situation onto others. I agreed with Apollo that my response to Zipped could be construed as shade, I didn't deny that. Where did I OMGUS her? Or anyone else for that matter?
Talking about town behavior, me talking right now instead of slinking into the night or flip flopping back and forth with 'Well, yes, Flux might just have a point here' is damn anti-town behavior. That doesn't help anyone, especially when I don't believe you do have a point.
I disagree on the vote argument.
I disagree on the agreeableness argument.
And I disagree that my shade is indicative of scum.
What should I be seeing here? Why would I agree with something I don't believe?
I still don't know what you're getting at here. We don't know how scum would behave. I could reference Mafiera or Simon as instances where scum have done both, and it would still be inconclusive. There isn't anything to tunnel when this reasoning is entirely WIFOM.
That's fine. Everyone gets a vote, but I'm going to be here until day end so you have to justify it.
saenima
Not Aeleus
Would you mind quoting where i did this?
And i really don't like how you're just avoiding giving us much of anything while immediately trying to turn it on me. Now that's a deflection if i ever saw one.
As far as what i'm thinking about the people in here, i agree that Verelios is not coming out well of this conversation. His arguments seem flimsy and reaching. Flux is making good points so far. I'm gonna read him again more closely to see if i find anything wrong there but for now i got nothing. You are a complete enigma to me. I never played with you or even watched you play so i was hoping for some meatier contributions to get a better sense. On both threads you've been very quiet.
Verelios
Were-elios
How do you think I'm going to react when the facts line up exactly as I said? You're not a victim, I'm merely pointing out that you're taking someone's argument and using it yourself.
Whew boy, that's some deflection. It's not 110% denial, it's called an argument. And you're being ironically defensive by throwing shade and implying that me talking about it is scummy. Because the person telling you that you're lifting arguments off the last page of the thread is scummier than the person that does it.
Verelios
Were-elios
Interesting, can you elaborate?
I can't read myself well, so I'm going to ask you what points you agree with in Flux's argument, and what I've said that's reaching.
You're being standoffish because you're taking what is a conversation starter and transforming it into an argument. No one was against you; no one was trying to seed you as an exclusion target. And yet, all your responses are like you're going to war.
Not everything is black and white. Anyone other than myself can be scum. But if that's how I'm going to look at things, I might as well flip a coin to determine who to choose to exclude right now. You're saying that everyone in this room is pretty much neutral to you, which makes it sound like you don't care who is excluded as long as someone is other than yourself. I can straight up say I wouldn't want to see saenima excluded right now.
You have presented 0 points to support who you would want to vote for in this room. Yet, you absolutely want someone excluded because it'll supposedly give us more information. So how is that an odd attitude to have when it's factual, with what everyone else except for yourself has already stated in regards to the direction of who they'll want to exclude?
It sure doesn't seem that way. Instead, it seems that you're actually attacking those who point to anything suspect of yours. What it comes down to is your tone and the form of arguments you're making, which is why you seem to be the most suspect person here, in my eyes. It doesn't seem like you're trying to better our understanding of the whole, but simply trying to defend and deflect. That's it, while the points presented towards you before were for the purpose of getting a better sense of what was going on, including my vote.
Still makes no sense to me. If I were scum, I would straight up want someone in here excluded. That's it. I wouldn't need to play around with something for a master plan later on. Seeing how people are averse to no excluding, it wouldn't even be difficult for me to have ignored that possibility altogether and just go with an exclusion for someone I knew was town.
Yet, other townies (since there are only 2 scum) including me manage to engage in conversation to figure things out without being extremely defensive and only questioning others' motives instead of actually speaking to what they're saying. So then why is it only you?
Apparently, you should ask her, since that's how she felt herself based on what she said here. And also the impression I got.
It's not about conceding, it's about justifying. If someone explains why they think someone else is wrong about what they're saying, then fine. If someone in turn tries to deflect those points by twisting what others are saying and trying to find an ulterior motive behind it? Then not fine. Your immediate recourse is to use defensive language implicating someone else like "I can't tell if you actually believe this." Is that supposed to make me, or anyone else, trust you?
Exactly, and another example of transforming what should have been trying to figure things out into an argument as though I were attacking your integrity. We don't know how scum would behave. There isn't one way for them to. The lack of a hard decision for a room vote at EoD struck me as intriguing. You then transformed it into me saying that you're scum. There's a lack of nuance into what you're saying, and that's what bothers me the most.
And I have.
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
I was referring to the following post.
And I’m giving you what I can for now. There’s a limit to what I can pull out here. I’ve feel good about some people in the other room (Zipped, Natiko to a lesser extent). There are two people in the other room who I’m on record as saying that I wanted to be paired with them because I didn’t have enough of a read on them. So I’m stuck with the people in this room to comment on. Y’all know me feelings on Vere and Flux. But I had to call you out there because I thought it was pretty interesting that you were calling me out for coasting when it sure seemed like you weren’t offering much yourself. I could try to pull more takes on the game out of thin air, but they probably wouldn’t be sincere.
Sure. From the main thread, the big one is when you said my room preferences were too limited for wanting to be split from three people, when I wasn’t actually saying I wanted to be split from Zipped. In this thread, I agree with Flux that when he said it would be a twist of momentum shifted towards him or saenima. I thought he was clearly referring to the kind of situation in Simon Says when Fran was clearly gonna get lynched, only for Salva to gain momentum in the eleventh hour. For you to try to interpret that as “flux or sae getting lynched would be suspiciously manufactured” seems like more than a reach imo.
saenima
Not Aeleus
First off, i'm on mobile so it's a pain to back read and multiquote and what have you. It's also slow going.
Regarding you.
You try to throw shade on me and Kop here. What you fail to bring up is that without mine and Kop's vote N would stay in the lead at the time, which according to you would be a bad choice. So how do you figure our vote is sus?
This is just straight up false. N got 3 votes and the only reason why this comp was chosen was due to Kopite's late vote. 4 against 3. And as far as i can remember i was the only one who repeatedly and clearly said that N was a bad choice. There might have been maybe a couple more comments on it but it wasn't as clear cut as you imply.
Then there's our whole exchange in this thread deriving from the first post i quote here that makes little sense to me. I was talking about one thing and you were painting my post as off based on the premise that i was talking about something different. It could have just been a misunderstanding though.
This is not a good argument, considering what was said and the context of the day. If i suddenly had 2 votes on me in the next 5 minutes it would indeed be something completely out of left field, seeing as no one has even talked about it in any way. If Apollo plucked down a vote on you right now no one would be that surprised. Things are not equal when you put them into context.
I'm still not saying you're definite scum and i'm not voting right now. Gonna read Flux's side more carefully next. I'm not even sure that i want to lynch anyone in this group.
If we happen to miss-exclude here, and the other group did as well (resulting in 4 v 2), I think it'd be worth seriously discussing the idea of both groups for the next Selection Phase not excluding. We'd enter selection phase #3 with 3 v 2.
This would mean that exclusion phase #3 would be a 5-person group, where 2 of the people within it would be scum. It'd still be LyLo, but with fewer people to consider.
On the other hand, it could just be the 2 groups in exclusion phase #2 (with 3 people each) doing it as normal and both excluding someone (since if even one of them does an ME at that point, we lose).
I feel like both are valid ways to go about things.
This would mean that exclusion phase #3 would be a 5-person group, where 2 of the people within it would be scum. It'd still be LyLo, but with fewer people to consider.
On the other hand, it could just be the 2 groups in exclusion phase #2 (with 3 people each) doing it as normal and both excluding someone (since if even one of them does an ME at that point, we lose).
I feel like both are valid ways to go about things.
Now that I think about it, If one group has 2 scum, they could simply win by turboing the third person immediately if it's 4 v 2. So regardless of what would happen during the next selection phase, if that manages to be the composition, we lose immediately.
If one group during this exclusion phase does NE and the other is ME, it'll be 5 v 2 during the next Selection Phase. One group of 4 and another group of 3. If scum is together in one of the rooms and forces an ME, we'll still lose if both groups have an ME resulting in 2 v 2.
Basically, we're in a dangerous spot. Unless we agree that there'll be 1 NE this phase, and at least 1 other NE the next phase, the next Selection Phase will be crucial because 2 scum in the same room (particularly the 3-person one) would result in an automatic loss.
If one group during this exclusion phase does NE and the other is ME, it'll be 5 v 2 during the next Selection Phase. One group of 4 and another group of 3. If scum is together in one of the rooms and forces an ME, we'll still lose if both groups have an ME resulting in 2 v 2.
Basically, we're in a dangerous spot. Unless we agree that there'll be 1 NE this phase, and at least 1 other NE the next phase, the next Selection Phase will be crucial because 2 scum in the same room (particularly the 3-person one) would result in an automatic loss.
saenima
Not Aeleus
That's not deflection, that's me trying to make some sense of very little, and talking about both rooms. But fair on the rest of your post, it's true there's not much to go on. When i ask you, or anyone else, to give us more i'm not asking for hot reads and random finger pointing, i'm trying to both see how you react to it and also hoping that you bring up something fresh that unearths new stuff for us to consider.
saenima
Not Aeleus
If we get to 4v2 we might to get 2 people in one room and 4 in another, if that is possible. That guarantees a NE and a solid chance at a good exclusion. Though an ME at that point will still lose us the game.
Nope. Range for a group going into a door is set at 3-5.
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
Here’s my thinking. I would have no problem excluding Verelios in this room. But I’d also be okay with not excluding, your math checks out as far as I can tell, and based on what Nat was saying in the main thread, I think the other group might be a bit more likely to choose to exclude. The problem would still be getting another group not to exclude in the next phase. Some real prisoners dillema shit going on in each room lol
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
Also, this is fair. Sorry if I came off too aggressive
saenima
Not Aeleus
No worries, half the time i'm playing mafia i just feel like an asshole and constantly want to apologize lol
Verelios
Were-elios
Hm. And I'm sure that rankled you to your very core. You're acting like I should've given a perfunctory response to the question and left it at that. If that's not what you're saying, and I'm twisting your words right now, then what were you expecting since that's how I feel?
No, it's not 'I might as well flip a coin', it's that I want actual tangible reasons to vote for someone besides a gut feeling and faulty logic. I don't want to be biased before the day is even done.
If I were being honest, it would be
1. Flux/Apollo
2. Saenima
I can't say there's no OMGUS in your ranking because I don't know, and I'm not sure if I was looking for suspicious points for you. I might have, though at the moment I am scum reading you.
Apollo, it still comes back to her desire for N room and the preference post. What bothers me most is that she's coasting when there was a real possibility of her being excluded.
Saenima is inoffensive. I mean that as, nothing much sticks out to me positively or negatively, except his seeming reliance on Nat and you in the thread.
Tone is a funny thing. You can hand waive any discreprancies by saying 'I don't like his tone' and craft any reason to scum read by saying 'He's gotten defensive!' during an argument. It's a matter of a few words. I initially felt your post was manufactured, the tone used when citing Apollo and Nat lazily put together.
Well, is it possible or not? Since you seem so adamant, I'll just take a yes or no.
So, what you're telling me is that I've been wholly defensive this game? I haven't been trying to figure things out? I haven't been conversing and disagreeing with what you've said?
I see what you're posting, and I'm responding to them, just not how you'd like. And I know my activity so this narrative doesn't work.
Pedantic, but 1) How is that three people, and 2) Apollo construed it as shade or even future justification, not OMGUS.
I don't want you, or anyone here, to trust me. I'm not here to play patty cake, I'm here to help town win. You shouldn't because you don't kmow my alignment. That isn't what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to actually make everyone here think of the things said, if they make sense, and why they agree with it. I want them to make an informed decison based on facts.
And as for being confrontational, yes, if I believe something I'll say it. I initially stated in this thread that my thought process lead me along the lines of 'why is he saying this?' but thought it might be OMGUS. I didn't deny that, even though I stand by what I said.
I personally wasn't sure if what you were saying was genuine or if you didn't actually believe it, since it was farfetched to me, hence the suspicion. You can call it paranoid if you want. I don't see it as a deflection in any case.
And I do disagree with what you said. If I justify why what you said is wrong, and then try to analyze why you said it, that's not deflection, or wrong. I'm trying to understand what happened to get that conclusion and why.
You say this as if confrontation is wrong. It's a difference in opinion. I don't believe what you're saying is true or sincere, conversely, you believe what you're saying. Arguing doesn't mean not figuring things out, it just means going in a different direction.
And as for nuance, come on Flux. Anyone can read between the lines. Saying this 'didn't start' insinuates that that my actions now are scummy. I didn't say anything about the day end vote relating to it.
saenima
Not Aeleus
As for this, it's where i'm at as well. If an exclusion had to happen to progress the game, i'd vote Verelios at this point. But it might be a better play to go for a NE today because of the math and also for the reason you say. I think there's more than a 50/50 chance the other room will exclude. Difference being that i think it won't be very difficult to convince anyone that we need another NE if the numbers are 5-2 at the time. I hope they aren't.
Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at, too. I'm not sure what would be the "best" decision here.
The other room's definitely going to exclude, so if we NE, there's going to be a group forced to NE in the next exclusion phase. In a way, we have the ability to force the situation where there's a good chance we lose if a subsequent group doesn't NE, which would maybe paint someone who wants to disregard that and go for an exclusion possibly in a bad light to aid in scum hunting?
But I don't disagree with what Natiko was saying, either, and that some of this is delaying what could be the inevitable. If we both ME, then at least the next groups will be 3 people each. If scum managed to be divided into the two separate groups, there's a good chance that at least one scum will be excluded, which will save us... But there's a lot of risk in all of this.
Ugh. I can't tell.
Verelios
Were-elios
I'm also gonna be honest, I'm on mobile so going back and forth to the thread is a pain. Point of the matter is, it felt like you were both sheeping Nat's vote. I vaguely remember you saying R was okay to you, but that's how I saw it.
I might be wrong, but other than those that picked N, general consensus seemed to be that sticking inactives in one group was a bad idea.
Which one are you referring to?
When there's 20 hours to go in a 24 hour phase and a trend is already set, that's not scum hunting, that's sleeping to an exclusion. Saying that anything other than the trend is suspect doesn't make sense to me. I agree that right now, when neither you or Flux have been extensively looked at by more than 1 person, it's unlikely. At the time of my post though, it wasn't good even with context.
Verelios
Were-elios
Either, or. You should have the obligation to defend your view points if you believe them. Saying you don't want to converse anymore isn't helping town. The more you say, the more town knows about you.
I'm going to make an ISO about you three before day end, so on the off chance I get excluded town takes some information to the next selection.
To me, it comes down to how much I think Verelios is scum or not. I want to avoid a miss-exclusion at all costs, and was ready to go for an NE before he went off. A lot of what he's saying still doesn't make sense to me or strikes me as unreasonable, in a way that isn't town. So now being in the top of my suspect list next to Donna, Natiko, Kopite, and Bronson, I think it could also be a missed opportunity if he was indeed scum and I decided to ignore it for a "safer" NE here.
I'll take another look back.
saenima
Not Aeleus
Sorry i forgot to answer this. The post i mean is the first of yours that i quote:
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
I am leaning towards no exclude. Honestly I think we’ve had some pretty okay discussion in here, so there’s still value we’re taking out. We are presumably getting a flip from the other group, and another one after the night phase. That would give us some information to work with moving forward.
saenima
Not Aeleus
My greatest doubt at the moment is whether Verelios just got caught up on a spiral of weak defensive arguments or whether he's simply scum. From what i understand he's a very experienced player, so how likely is the former? @Apollo @FluxWaveZ have you played with Vere before? What do you think?
Apollo
Apollo will wreck your goddamn face
I’ve played with Vere before. His reactions and defenses here don’t disqualify him from being town IMO. I’ve been very defensive of scum reads myself in the past, when you’re town it behooves you to go out fighting. My scum read of him is based on patterns I’ve noted in his posts and not based on his defenses here tbh
A lot of what makes me want to stay my vote on Verelios comes form here.
1. Considering an NE in the main thread because of the risk an ME would entail, but then being all in on an exclusion here, and not being worried about an ME because it would give us more data.
2. Spending so much time defending himself and not actually scum hunting or presenting proper arguments for why Apollo or I would be scum, and we're less than an hour away. Yet he absolutely wants to have someone excluded despite this?
3. His arguments that scum would potentially want to not exclude this phase, which is completely absurd to me.
4. Overall defensiveness and hostility when he could be setting up a town v town scenario as far as he knows, which would go counter to his own win condition.
I don't like it, and it's giving me all sorts of bad vibes.
1. Considering an NE in the main thread because of the risk an ME would entail, but then being all in on an exclusion here, and not being worried about an ME because it would give us more data.
2. Spending so much time defending himself and not actually scum hunting or presenting proper arguments for why Apollo or I would be scum, and we're less than an hour away. Yet he absolutely wants to have someone excluded despite this?
3. His arguments that scum would potentially want to not exclude this phase, which is completely absurd to me.
4. Overall defensiveness and hostility when he could be setting up a town v town scenario as far as he knows, which would go counter to his own win condition.
I don't like it, and it's giving me all sorts of bad vibes.
I have not played with Verelios, no. It comes down to whether, as scum, he would actually be this defensive for so little. With only 2 members, scum wouldn't just sit there, but there also wasn't much suspicion on him at all until he brought it on himself.
Hard to track it at this point, I won't get much from looking at it. I don't remember this defensiveness, but I also don't think he was generally scum read that game.
I'm at an impasse. Best situation right now for me would be if we NE'd and Verelios was eliminated by scum in the next elimination phase so I wouldn't have to think about it for the remainder of the game.
I'm at an impasse. Best situation right now for me would be if we NE'd and Verelios was eliminated by scum in the next elimination phase so I wouldn't have to think about it for the remainder of the game.
Faddy
of, having, or involving transitory whims
People in the room will retain read access.
And you may quote from here, but not screenshot.
saenima
Not Aeleus
Gotcha.