Death Stranding Design

[Ty4on]

1. Are there any gifts that we feel are just too much and need to be changed?

They seem fine so far.

2. Are there any Creator roles that we feel are just too much and need to be changed?

A comment mostly. The role thief functions like a role cop as they know the role of whoever they targeted. That would out the scum eraser who’s obviously not town.

 

[Sawneeks]

Ohhhhh, that makes way more sense. I was honestly so confused as to how you thought there should be more than five lol That's my bad for misunderstanding. So I guess I have the following questions left:

1. Are there any gifts that we feel are just too much and need to be changed?
2. Are there any Creator roles that we feel are just too much and need to be changed?
3. What do we think about my provided safe claims for scum?
4. Does anyone feel strongly that the player count needs to be adjusted or any of the current roles need to be cut or swapped with previously removed ones?

1. After having read the both of your...numbers..breakdown...I take back what I said about the silence. All the items seem fine with me. :>
2. Nope! The one slight problem, Switcher, has been fixed so they all seem fine to me.
3. Hilarious and with the theme. All good.
4. No, it all looks fine with me.

 

[Natiko]

They seem fine so far.

A comment mostly. The role thief functions like a role cop as they know the role of whoever they targeted. That would out the scum eraser who’s obviously not town.

Yeah I did realize that awhile back, that’s part of what led to me removing the other cop check and godfather/miller. Do you think it’s too much?

Any thoughts on 3 & 4? Think we may be close to wrapping this up! Fingers crossed at least.

 

[Ty4on]

Yeah I did realize that awhile back, that’s part of what led to me removing the other cop check and godfather/miller. Do you think it’s too much?

Any thoughts on 3 & 4? Think we may be close to wrapping this up! Fingers crossed at least.

I’m not quite done with 2 :P

First a question, what happens to Loved/Hated in lylo? Would a loved be able to stop a scum turbo?

Second a comment. I feel Kojima’s reviver role is too powerful. In towns hands it’s another night with no kills and scum can use it to force a no lynch. I would replace it with a one-shot doctor.
Kojima is also incentivized to give someone that role since it lengthens the game.

———————
3.
Cop and miller - The info this gives mafia is totally acceptable. Strong claim (cop) too so gives them a helping hand with near confirmed townies.
Vigilante - I guess this is up to the players, but I hope they don’t claim one who can kill every night lol. Tells mafia they don’t need to worry about one, but not much they can do either.
Medium - This can be really strong, but they have to work for it too by giving realistic responses. Add to their “PM” that they can not directly quote any of the replies. A real PM would probably be worded such since any PM from the game runner or post in another thread can’t be quoted.
Mason - Is fine. God I hope nobody claims that, is gonna be a nightmare if caught lol.
Hider - Fine too, even has all the updates lol

4.
Is it 10:3:1 now or 11:3:1 with oddity detector and death marker?

 

[Natiko]

I’m not quite done with 2 :P

First a question, what happens to Loved/Hated in lylo? Would a loved be able to stop a scum turbo?

Second a comment. I feel Kojima’s reviver role is too powerful. In towns hands it’s another night with no kills and scum can use it to force a no lynch. I would replace it with a one-shot doctor.
Kojima is also incentivized to give someone that role since it lengthens the game.

———————
3.
Cop and miller - The info this gives mafia is totally acceptable. Strong claim (cop) too so gives them a helping hand with near confirmed townies.
Vigilante - I guess this is up to the players, but I hope they don’t claim one who can kill every night lol. Tells mafia they don’t need to worry about one, but not much they can do either.
Medium - This can be really strong, but they have to work for it too by giving realistic responses. Add to their “PM” that they can not directly quote any of the replies. A real PM would probably be worded such since any PM from the game runner or post in another thread can’t be quoted.
Mason - Is fine. God I hope nobody claims that, is gonna be a nightmare if caught lol.
Hider - Fine too, even has all the updates lol

4.
Is it 10:3:1 now or 11:3:1 with oddity detector and death marker?

I was going to leave loved and hated active unless someone thinks it's some huge concern. I don't care that much either way.

I'll just remove the reviver. Not putting in a doctor shot.

I can specify it's 1-shot if we desire, but I was going to leave it up to them. Ideally they'll realize it pairs with the death mark extra kill.

In general - should I give them full role PMs and flavor with them all to help them out with claiming them?

11:3:1 with oddity detector and death marker.

 

[Ty4on]

I can specify it's 1-shot if we desire, but I was going to leave it up to them. Ideally they'll realize it pairs with the death mark extra kill.

In general - should I give them full role PMs and flavor with them all to help them out with claiming them?

Yeah, I think it’s a little excessive to make it a one shot. They can figure out what makes the most sense.
Didn’t see the marked connection. I was thinking someone who had been tracked trying to explain themselves lol

I think the PM bit you gave is enough; just give them the command to send in, sharing more than that is approaching modkill territory.

 

[Natiko]

Yeah, I think it’s a little excessive to make it a one shot. They can figure out what makes the most sense.
Didn’t see the marked connection. I was thinking someone who had been tracked trying to explain themselves lol

I think the PM bit you gave is enough; just give them the command to send in, sharing more than that is approaching modkill territory.

Okay, I added in the commands for the safe fake claims and the bit about not directly quoting the responses to the medium.

 

[Natiko]

So what are we thinking? I feel like we're on the precipice of this being wrapped up. If you both could just do a quick glance over the PMs again and also the order of operations that would be helpful! It can wait until you both confirm you're done wanting changes to the design itself.

 

[Ty4on]

I’m still a bit iffy on the marker, but it has to be nerfed with limited total markings (so if you run out without marking 3 people it does nothing).
In its current state it turns really OP should the marker be alive, but have yet to kill in a lylo state with more than three townies alive as the marker just keeps marking while town lynches mafia and eventually has enough markings. Barring a protection this is almost a mechanical lock for mafia.

Somewhat related the total worst case scenario for town with no protection whatsoever (ladder killed before N2 has a 22% chance with all random events) and neutral leaving D4 has the game in an odd limbo D4 as it’s technically lylo with 4:3, but if the markings have been successful (23% chance in this case) that means town have to lynch scum and then also stop the primary NK. So an odd lylo where town is basically dead, even if they lynch correctly.

 

[Natiko]

10:3:1 and 11:3:1 with death marker are effectively no different except in design B scum have to meet specific criteria to get their single additional kill in order to neutralize the one added townie. For the ladder to die and the power go unused town has to lynch a townie D1 that can be absorbed by the backup and then the ladder has to be killed N1 immediately following that and even should that happen town has a commuter still as well as the potential to gain a BP.

 

[Ty4on]

I forgot about the backup lol
That pushes the odds a fair bit down

 

[Natiko]

I forgot about the backup lol
That pushes the odds a fair bit down

So where does that leave you on the topic?

 

[Ty4on]

So where does that leave you on the topic?

Does 10:3:1 with no marker sound ok?

It feels a bit destabilizing as the kill will always come late and on top of the potential exit of the neutral. Like town feel like they maybe have a grasp and then just die or get into a near unwinnable spot.

 

[Natiko]

Does 10:3:1 with no marker sound ok?

It feels a bit destabilizing as the kill will always come late and on top of the potential exit of the neutral. Like town feel like they maybe have a grasp and then just die or get into a near unwinnable spot.

I still would argue it’s better for town to have a chance at neutralizing the kill as opposed to just building it into the player count.

 

[Sawneeks]

Commute
Switch
Block
Give
Lightning Rod (Redirects all below actions to this target except Message)
Message; Protect; Erase; Mark
Kill
Change; Role Thief; Track

Lightning Rod should go before Switch, Block, and Give, no? It takes everything and forces it onto the player including items and both switch choices.

And these are all in order, yeah? So if a Change and a Thief hits the same person the Change happens first? The player should also be informed of both events too.

 

[Natiko]

Lightning Rod should go before Switch, Block, and Give, no? It takes everything and forces it onto the player including items and both switch choices.

And these are all in order, yeah? So if a Change and a Thief hits the same person the Change happens first? The player should also be informed of both events too.

Well it’s weird since the lightning rod has to be given. Maybe I should have it delayed by a night to avoid that weirdness if nothing else.

Edit: And yeah I should specify that the change would hit first even though the actions are roughly simultaneous.

 

[Sawneeks]

Role PMs:

- change Towns WinCon to 'You win when all threats to the Town are eliminiated'
- Fragile's power should be described as 'Due to this [ ]you will be ineligible to be targeted by night actions during even nights[ ]'. On even nights they also cannot use items or other powers. You may want to keep that in mind given the Item Giver.
- Back Up has some conflicting info. In the role PM it says 'you function as if you started with their role' but in your notes it says they 'gain any remaining shots of targeted role'.
- Might want to clarify if the Adrenaline Junkie is informed if they are slated to die or not? Can't remember if that's mandatory.
- Heartman needs his highlights
- Nifty Backpack needs his highlights too
- May want to add in the Self Motion Detector to the Priority List too. Since they get results at Day Start if they are changed to another role they should not get those results depending on where you put it on the list.
- Might want to clarify in Kojima's role that the list of roles can only be used once per role. Can't make everyone Hated :p

 

[Sawneeks]

Well it’s weird since the lightning rod has to be given. Maybe I should have it delayed by a night to avoid that weirdness if nothing else.

Edit: And yeah I should specify that the change would hit first even though the actions are roughly simultaneous.

Ah, right. Hm.

You could still keep it as-is but be aware that when the Lightning Rod is given it does attract the Block and Switch to it. Give wouldn't matter since that is going to them anyway.

 

[Natiko]

Role PMs:

- change Towns WinCon to 'You win when all threats to the Town are eliminiated'
- Fragile's power should be described as 'Due to this [ ]you will be ineligible to be targeted by night actions during even nights[ ]'. On even nights they also cannot use items or other powers. You may want to keep that in mind given the Item Giver.
- Back Up has some conflicting info. In the role PM it says 'you function as if you started with their role' but in your notes it says they 'gain any remaining shots of targeted role'.
- Might want to clarify if the Adrenaline Junkie is informed if they are slated to die or not? Can't remember if that's mandatory.
- Heartman needs his highlights
- Nifty Backpack needs his highlights too
- May want to add in the Self Motion Detector to the Priority List too. Since they get results at Day Start if they are changed to another role they should not get those results depending on where you put it on the list.
- Might want to clarify in Kojima's role that the list of roles can only be used once per role. Can't make everyone Hated :p

I made all of these changes. I also added a new caveat to Kojima that if a change fails, they cannot try to change another player into that role until exhausting all other options.

Ah, right. Hm.

You could still keep it as-is but be aware that when the Lightning Rod is given it does attract the Block and Switch to it. Give wouldn't matter since that is going to them anyway.

I decided to avoid confusion I would just have it be delayed a night. They'll receive a message the night they're initially targeted though - that is now on the sheet as well.

 

[Natiko]

Thoughts?

 

[Ty4on]

ahh, sorry for ghosting, haven’t even been close to the minimum post count :S

if kojima changes dying, do they then turn into someone who doesn’t die?

 

[Ty4on]

Oddity detector with targeting...
Otherwise the same, but can target a player and see if the “oddity” originates from there, yes if they target a player who’s role changed, otherwise answers it happened elsewhere or nowhere. Possibly unique response from targeting Kojima.

I’m still thinking of finishing, but was wondering if that sounded good or not. I see a little more interactivity for town as good since they really only have one or two roles who’s input matters until we have role swaps and items. Just a random idea.



When role thief steals a role I presume they remain in their previous alignment, what kind of role PM do they get from their target? What happens if they target Kojima?

 

[Ty4on]

Each night you may PM the gamerunner a message to someone in the game, but you won’t be told/don’t know where it goes.

Messenger Role

I’ve kinda wanted to rewrite it without the plural forms to make it less obvious it goes to a group without “lying” and saying it goes to one person. Someone is technically singular, but doesn’t sound as “this one person here”.

 

[Natiko]

ahh, sorry for ghosting, haven’t even been close to the minimum post count :S

if kojima changes dying, do they then turn into someone who doesn’t die?

No worries! Sorry for being so pushy as well, just want to get this wrapped in time to get it slotted for the next season around the game launch hopefully.

Yes, they would not die. The dying role will only trigger once the criteria is met.

Oddity detector with targeting...
Otherwise the same, but can target a player and see if the “oddity” originates from there, yes if they target a player who’s role changed, otherwise answers it happened elsewhere or nowhere. Possibly unique response from targeting Kojima.

I’m still thinking of finishing, but was wondering if that sounded good or not. I see a little more interactivity for town as good since they really only have one or two roles who’s input matters until we have role swaps and items. Just a random idea.



When role thief steals a role I presume they remain in their previous alignment, what kind of role PM do they get from their target? What happens if they target Kojima?

I like the oddity detector change - I didn't want it to have too high of a chance of being relevant, so I made it a targeted action that will detect if a player has EVER had or caused a role change. Could still be used to out Kojima, but it would require some deduction and getting the Kojima player caught in a lie.

The Role Thief would stay the same alignment, and they would get a role similar to the Creator changes. Basically "Your role has been changed! You are now a [Insert role specific info from the original PM]". They would not get the flavor or character name associated with the role. An example would be "Your role has been changed! You are now a Motion Detector. At the start of each Day Phase you will be informed of how many actions targeted you the previous night." or "Your role has been changed! You are now a Death Marker. Each night you can mark a player with a handprint using the command MARK: (NAME). Once per game, if a night phase begins with three living players bearing your mark - one of them will die at random. You can continue to mark players even after this occurs, but the death will never trigger again."

Messenger Role

I’ve kinda wanted to rewrite it without the plural forms to make it less obvious it goes to a group without “lying” and saying it goes to one person. Someone is technically singular, but doesn’t sound as “this one person here”.

I updated it to say an "undisclosed recipient". The game is bastard anyways.

 

[Ty4on]

The Role Thief would stay the same alignment, and they would get a role similar to the Creator changes.

Does that mean they can’t target Kojima since it would kinda break Kojima?

Edit: Regarding oddity that was kinda what I thought as well, doesn’t change balance much. As i’m understanding from you it’s a change that makes Oddity detectior instead target someone to see if their role has changed ever in the game? This could IMO help a bit by making it sound less like there’s a scum recruiter or similar which the first one could be misinterpreted as being (“oh god, why is this info important to me, must be a recruiter changing people’s roles”).
I was thinking motion detector too, but any change either makes them way more powerful/different (say tracker of some sort) or almost useless (voyeur, not enough roles).

 

[Natiko]

Does that mean they can’t target Kojima since it would kinda break Kojima?

Edit: Regarding oddity that was kinda what I thought as well, doesn’t change balance much. As i’m understanding from you it’s a change that makes Oddity detectior instead target someone to see if their role has changed ever in the game? This could IMO help a bit by making it sound less like there’s a scum recruiter or similar which the first one could be misinterpreted as being (“oh god, why is this info important to me, must be a recruiter changing people’s roles”).
I was thinking motion detector too, but any change either makes them way more powerful/different (say tracker of some sort) or almost useless (voyeur, not enough roles).

Correct, they cannot target Kojima. I think I said that before, but maybe I forgot to add it to the sheet - I'll do that just in case. I will simply say the command failed should they try.

And yes, that's what I was thinking RE: the oddity change. Make sure the verbiage in the PM sounds good and I think that role is a wrap. I could make the MD a target x-shot, but honestly I kind of like the flavor attached to the self-MD too much to part ways with it unless we think it's strongly needed as a tweak lol

 

[Sawneeks]

Think the Self-MD is good as-is. It's fairly weak enough to where making it x-shot wouldn't do too much imo

 

[Natiko]

Awesome, thanks Saw!

Any other concerns? Perhaps we can get this approved by the end of this weekend?

@Sawneeks @Ty4on

 

[Ty4on]

Awesome, thanks Saw!

Any other concerns? Perhaps we can get this approved by the end of this weekend?

Yeah, I’ll just run some game simulations to see what happens.

If the package giver is lynched D1, does the backup get to send packages immediately, i.e. N1?

 

[Natiko]

Yeah, I’ll just run some game simulations to see what happens.

If the package giver is lynched D1, does the backup get to send packages immediately, i.e. N1?

Yes, same can be said for any night power N1 following the D1 lynch.

 

[Ty4on]

Think the Self-MD is good as-is. It's fairly weak enough to where making it x-shot wouldn't do too much imo

I think it was implied to make it something like an x-shot tracker, but that changes things up a bit. Even a three shot can be powerful.

 

[Ty4on]

After some thinking I feel like the cop is a bit too powerful of a fake claim; it looks like the most powerful claim in the game which I don’t really think the mafia needs.
Miller would then also be a bit redundant without a cop and give maf a false sense of security until town potentially notices there’s no cop and auto lynch miller.

 

[Natiko]

After some thinking I feel like the cop is a bit too powerful of a fake claim; it looks like the most powerful claim in the game which I don’t really think the mafia needs.
Miller would then also be a bit redundant without a cop and give maf a false sense of security until town potentially notices there’s no cop and auto lynch miller.

Unless someone can come up with additional fake claims that aren’t redundant with roles already in the game I’m inclined to leave it. Vig might be impossible to claim if the death mark never goes off, if it kills someone that a vig would never shoot, or if that mafia member gets killed early. Then they are either forced to claim masons which is potentially horrible for them or have one player have no safe claim whatsoever.

 

[Ty4on]

Unless someone can come up with additional fake claims that aren’t redundant with roles already in the game I’m inclined to leave it. Vig might be impossible to claim if the death mark never goes off, if it kills someone that a vig would never shoot, or if that mafia member gets killed early. Then they are either forced to claim masons which is potentially horrible for them or have one player have no safe claim whatsoever.

I’m pondering over it now.

It’s not that bad RN IMO tho.
First player claims hider, explains why they don’t die.
Second player claims medium, can bullshit a lot.
Third player claims vig, was blocked or didn’t do anything or made the one kill.
Or claims vanilla (this could be added, possibly with unique flavor)

 

[Natiko]

I’m pondering over it now.

It’s not that bad RN IMO tho.
First player claims hider, explains why they don’t die.
Second player claims medium, can bullshit a lot.
Third player claims vig, was blocked or didn’t do anything or made the one kill.
Or claims vanilla (this could be added, possibly with unique flavor)

With it being role madness I think people would be very suspect of two vanillas. If I can come up with one more good fake claim I’ll toss the cop and miller but I can’t think of anything.

 

[Ty4on]

I had a few ideas for the package giver.

First one was fluff and balance related. We have scenario where Ty4on the Package Giver gave Sawneeks a nothing package. Ty4on claims all of this and Sawneeks responds by scumreading Ty4on because she didn't receive anything. Natiko reads all of this and deduces that something blocked the transaction, either a blocker of some sort on Ty4on or a jailkeeper on Sawneeks.
Presuming it is all like this in the current state I thought of two possible things that'd both be buffs. First give the Package Giver some extra information and tell them something like "The package felt suspiciously light" and/or tell the person receiving a nothing package something "You received a package during the night. You opened it right away only to be disappointed that it was completely empty." so they can back up a claim.

The second thing was less about outright balance and more just randomness. With how it is now we have it possibly doing quite decent, say the lightning rod doesn't go anywhere or to scum and the other items get some ok use in townies hands, but there's also the chance that nothing really happens and they just send three packages of nothing in a row, maybe kill a good townie with a lightning rod until the game ends or they die.
My "solution" to this would be to just make it deterministic in some way, either N1 this, N2 that or something like N1 this or that etc., because it doesn't really make a difference to the player, they still don't know anything about the underlying mechanics, but as a moderator you get extra control to balance the game.
The Package Giver is fairly powerful so it could be a bit swingy if it just gives out a bunch of nothings. The tracker is the only town tool to catching a scum, the BP has a decentish chance of stopping a kill if it goes through and the lightning rod could potentially kill the top town since there's no doctor, kill a scum or be rendered moot by being sent N1 and N2 having all NKs stopped by the ladder.

With it being role madness I think people would be very suspect of two vanillas. If I can come up with one more good fake claim I’ll toss the cop and miller but I can’t think of anything.

Yeah, that could be. I also can't think of anything but like "Vice President of Jackshit" which is just weird lol

 

[Natiko]

@Ty4on I always intended to inform the player they received nothing, but you're right that it wasn't on the sheet. I went ahead and added explicitly what messages they will receive. I also threaded the needle on what you were suggesting about the package order. It'll still be random, but now there are six packages total - with only two chances of receiving an empty package. That way it can't happen again and again and again. The empty packages are also good for balancing with the lightning rod as the package given directly after that will go to that same player so the empty ones raise the chance at nothing being wasted.

 

[Ty4on]

That sounds like a decent compromise. I see the appeal of shifting the burden to RNJesus instead of figuring out the most ’’’’’fair’’’’’ one.

The empty packages are also good for balancing with the lightning rod as the package given directly after that will go to that same player so the empty ones raise the chance at nothing being wasted.

I didn’t even think of that lol

 

[Natiko]

Main thing now seems to be the scum fake claims. I’ve still not thought of an alternative. Despite the small player count there’s a lot of ground covered already between them, the gifts, and the creator options.

 

[Ty4on]

I’ve been looking at role lists for a long time, but can’t come up with anything better than a one shot cop.
That makes it more believable (why do we have all these limited use roles and a full blown cop) and the player more expendable.
Other roles all seem to require some evidence like a tracker needs to see something.


——————————


This is one slight tangent, but the janitor is gonna be fairly powerful. Its main weakness right now is that they have to pre-target and we could have L Kojima or role thief changing them, but most games generally evolve into having a few players fall down into a lynch pool and mafia could always play defensively and target themselves.
Vote analysis could end up being super hard.

The obvious thing is reducing their shot to either one or two. One is maybe a bit extreme, but it’s still a good and powerful ability if they pull it through. If mafia does well and gets like three lynches to flip blank it’s gonna be kinda ridiculous for town lol.
Another thing which maybe is too messy is replacing the vanilla with a Mortician who can target dead people to receive their Role PM. This role could also be made 1 shot so it doesn’t completely make the janitor pointless (as there is a backup).
It’s an interesting role tho (gives that vanilla something to claim and some value) and could help get the most valuable flip uncovered as they get to choose it themselves. It’s probably always gonna end up being the first one, but that’s often the sketchiest player.
Janitors are often linked to the NK and naturally there’s a much bigger chance that a townie was killed so by being able to get people that are lynched it really increases the value if they play it right.

 

[Ty4on]

I was actually reading about Mortician as a fake claim, but that’s a bit silly (mafia gets a pretty good claim and the ability to wreck town’s analysis with the knowledge town has no counter).
It got me on the Janitor’s page which kinda reminded me that they’re quite powerful and 3 shot is almost infinite in a way as we either approach game end or janitor dying by N4. By death I mean in an average game almost half players are dead by that point.

Size also matters since there isn’t much information outside of these lynches. I’m curious what you think. Other than that I think it’s mostly fine.

 

[Natiko]

@Ty4on I don’t think I’m feeling the need to put an explicit counter in for the janitor. What I can do is make it so the janitor can’t self-target which ensures town can see a scum flip, and it lets them know who the janitor was to try and look for connections.

 

[Natiko]

Also as for the fake claims, I thought we already said I wasn’t proving X-Shot info and it’s up to scum to determine how to best claim the role (just like vig should only be claimed as 1-shot if they pay attention)

 

[Ty4on]

Also as for the fake claims, I thought we already said I wasn’t proving X-Shot info and it’s up to scum to determine how to best claim the role (just like vig should only be claimed as 1-shot if they pay attention)

I guess. Felt like a different case tho.

@Ty4on I don’t think I’m feeling the need to put an explicit counter in for the janitor. What I can do is make it so the janitor can’t self-target which ensures town can see a scum flip, and it lets them know who the janitor was to try and look for connections.

Does 2 shot sound ok? Looking around it’s hard to see that much use of it, but the most common variation is night kills only one way or another (must target someone dying that night or is combined with the kill) and it’s often limited to just one shot.

This game isn’t that big so three blank players is gonna be a lot if all three flip.

 

[Ty4on]

I totally agree with unable to self-target irrespectively of other balance stuff. It’s a very reasonable modifier and the eraser erasing themself is a bit silly.

I can see a game state where motion detector is pressured, gets erased, claims *eraser hit them, is still lynched and eraser is now caught. In this case the eraser flipping blank too would be especially silly lol.
(that presumes town makes that link tho and don’t end up thinking motion detector is scum)
((last theory made me realize what an epic mafia gambit that could be lol))

*whoever has the eraser role ofc

 

[Natiko]

Eh, fine. I bumped it to 2-shot and no self target. I think three shots would have been fine because they would have to have the janitor survive that long AND target players that end up being killed, but I don't care enough to put up a fight. Just want this thing approved lol

 

[Natiko]

Anything else? @Sawneeks @Ty4on

 

[Sawneeks]

Still got a thumbs up from me \o/

 

[Ty4on]

Eh, fine. I bumped it to 2-shot and no self target. I think three shots would have been fine because they would have to have the janitor survive that long AND target players that end up being killed, but I don't care enough to put up a fight. Just want this thing approved lol

My rationale is that there's a fairly limited amount of scenarios where this hurts a scum that is down or struggling in a way. In most of those scenarios we have the janitor unable to hit that many.
However in a game where they do quite well the three shots come more into play so it increases the ceiling of their performance without taking much of their floor, slightly evening it out.


Just running across the roles one last time to look edge cases:
-Package: Sending when blocked and sending to commuter "exhausting" the shot. Most relevant for balance here is whether they get something like "you were unable to send it" or something when blocked.
-Backup: Does a player with exhausted shots count as vanilla? This is super duper edge as no role can be exhausted until after N2.
-Backup: If they're otherwise supposed to receive the role, will they receive a role that is erased?
-Adrenaline: Does a vengeful kill count as a night kill, or do they die instantly because it's more like a lynch?
-Oddity: What are the results the receive and is the result from hitting Kojima unique?
-Messenger: Some may simply not use this role which from role PM sounds like it is totally ok.
-Loved: If they're tied with player X, does player X get lynched instead?


Role fluff:
Package Giver

Welcome [Player],

You are Sam the Package Giver

You are aligned with the Stoic Good Team (That's the TOWN).

Each night you can give a player a packages by PMing the gamerunner the command GIVE: (NAME). You have a total six packages. You do not know the contents of the packages. You also have the ability to vote.

You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated.

Just flipping around the words a bit because they cannot choose themselves what package to give, their role is just six shot.
Welcome [Player],
Big Ass Ladder

You are a Big Ass Ladder the Protector.

You are aligned with the Stoic Good Team (That's the TOWN).

As a Big Ass Ladder you have the ability to lift people to safety. Once per game you can PM the gamerunner the command PROTECT. Once used, everyone will be immune to dying for that night. This command cannot be used Night 1. You also have the ability to vote.

You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated.

Not sure what the guidelines are for highlighting lol, but it felt appropriate to highlight that even though the role isn't passive

CDT6 Operative
-All fine, no need to tell about roles changing

Fragile
When receiving an item that's used at night:

You have received a package containing a 1-Shot Track. At night use the command TRACK: (NAME) to see who, if anyone, your target visited that night.
Because you are unavailable every even night, you are unable to use your item on even nights.

Bridge Baby
-All fine

Die-Hardman
-Die-Hardwoman is obvious, but perhaps make the nonbinary be Die-Hard/Die-Harder? Die-Hardperson sounds a bit strange

Kojima Productions PR
-All fine

Heartman
-Perhaps tell what happens in a tie, otherwise all fine

Bridget
-All fine

Naked Norman Reedus
-All fine, even tho they can't out mafia targeting them :cry:

Nifty Backpack
-Just wondering about replies, otherwise all fine

BT
-All fine

Higgs
-All fine

Cliff

Welcome [Player],

You are Cliff the 2-Shot Eraser.

You are aligned with the Evil Weirdos (That's the MAFIA).

You are teamed with:
??????????????????

You have access to several abilities as a result of being a real evil weirdo. Each night one member of the mafia can submit a night kill by PMing the gamerunner the command KILL: (NAME). You can also erase a player's info using the command ERASE: (NAME) twice a game. Targeting a player with an erasure will for the rest of the game cause them to flip without any PM being posted. You cannot self-target. Members of the scum team may perform their action and submit their factional kill at the same time (e.g. they are not constrained to one action only).

You win when you control 50% of the vote.

You can access the scum chat here: [LINK]

-Just adding in that the erase doesn't disappear and stays there for as long as the player is in the game

 

[Ty4on]

Another thing I forgot to add is erased flip. Does seemingly nothing happen or do we get a redacted flip like:

Ty4on has died!

Welcome Ty4on,

*REDACTED*

—————

Lastly what the example flip in the opening is supposed to look like. I feel like the vanilla should stay original and presume it will be advertised as role madness of some sort.

 

[Ty4on]

Other than that all fine. Wall of text, but really just a few nibbles.

 

[Ty4on]

Balance overview:

• 15 players with 3 mafia. As a baseline in a game with no roles and no neutral this is generally considered balanced.
• As a role madness we have a role for everyone and most town roles have low utility with a few exceptions.
• To balance swinginess should an important town role die there is a backup.
• The neutral is able to change someone's role and can do it pretty much unimpeded unless blocked or targeting commuter even.
• The neutral is slight town sided because the roles generally serve town more and there's a much higher chance it removes a good role for scum.
• Town is information light with very few traditional information roles.
• Town is protection heavy with three seperate ways of avoiding the kill plus a delayed death and possible switcher.
• Tho three are possible; the average amount of protections is probably between 1 and 2.
  
• To balance the protections mafia have a possible marker kill that'll have a higher chance of going through as the game progresses.
• Mafia's strongest tool is eraser which can erase the flip and rewards manipulation.
• Should eraser somehow be removed mafia is not in a terrible situation as we still have marker and dying townie.

Seems balanced. There is definitely potential for that to be skewed a fair bit, but that's inherent in the game and it doesn't seem to push it too much in an unfair direction.


Claims:

• Package Giver can quite strongly be confirmed by another townie.
• Ladder can explain they stopped the NK.
• Dying can't prove themselves, but can later on get town to settle on leaving them to die.
• Commuter can only prove their role in a few edge cases.
• Backup depends on what they get. Can however early on claim utility.
• Adrenaline can't prove themselves.
• Messenger most likely negative claim since mafia can decide not to share.
• Loved can fairly easily be proved, not guaranteed town though.
• Vanilla only has fluff, potentially somewhat negative.
• Motion can be confirmed-ish and is somewhat unlikely mafia ability.
• Oddity Detector can be confirmed, but is somewhat alignment independent.
• All mafia roles are fairly obvious.

So 4-5 ish confirmable townies, but most are of varying degree with IMO only 2 strong.

Mafia claims:

• Cop is really strong, but should be played right as full cop will be considered too strong to live and one shot is more expendable.
• Miller is dependent on cop and probably a bad one as either flipping will put suspicion on the other.
• Vigilante is an ok way of explaining why you were tracked to the kill and possibly the marked kill.
• Medium has somewhat townie alignment and fits fluff.
• Masons is lol :P
  
• Hider is ok, tho completely unconfirmable.

So cop is fine as I don't think we'll get town completely falling over thinking it has to be town. In a vacuum it is the most powerful claim in the game, but in a game it's gonna be weird that the cop survived the night and a cop can easily be faked by mafia.

Edit: I should've written this at the start instead of meandering for so long -_-

 

[Natiko]

My rationale is that there's a fairly limited amount of scenarios where this hurts a scum that is down or struggling in a way. In most of those scenarios we have the janitor unable to hit that many.
However in a game where they do quite well the three shots come more into play so it increases the ceiling of their performance without taking much of their floor, slightly evening it out.


Just running across the roles one last time to look edge cases:
-Package: Sending when blocked and sending to commuter "exhausting" the shot. Most relevant for balance here is whether they get something like "you were unable to send it" or something when blocked.
-Backup: Does a player with exhausted shots count as vanilla? This is super duper edge as no role can be exhausted until after N2.
-Backup: If they're otherwise supposed to receive the role, will they receive a role that is erased?
-Adrenaline: Does a vengeful kill count as a night kill, or do they die instantly because it's more like a lynch?
-Oddity: What are the results the receive and is the result from hitting Kojima unique?
-Messenger: Some may simply not use this role which from role PM sounds like it is totally ok.
-Loved: If they're tied with player X, does player X get lynched instead?


Role fluff:
Package Giver

Just flipping around the words a bit because they cannot choose themselves what package to give, their role is just six shot.
Welcome [Player],
Big Ass Ladder

Not sure what the guidelines are for highlighting lol, but it felt appropriate to highlight that even though the role isn't passive

CDT6 Operative
-All fine, no need to tell about roles changing

Fragile
When receiving an item that's used at night:


Bridge Baby
-All fine

Die-Hardman
-Die-Hardwoman is obvious, but perhaps make the nonbinary be Die-Hard/Die-Harder? Die-Hardperson sounds a bit strange

Kojima Productions PR
-All fine

Heartman
-Perhaps tell what happens in a tie, otherwise all fine

Bridget
-All fine

Naked Norman Reedus
-All fine, even tho they can't out mafia targeting them :cry:

Nifty Backpack
-Just wondering about replies, otherwise all fine

BT
-All fine

Higgs
-All fine

Cliff

-Just adding in that the erase doesn't disappear and stays there for as long as the player is in the game

I added what the Package Giver receives as a PM if it fails to deliver for any reason.
Backup will get the role PM still, it'll just specify no shots remain
Backup will receive a role that is erased. However, it will not be erased when they then flip.
Adrenaline would die instantly to Vengeful (not a NK) - they would not die instantly to the death mark kill
Added the result messages for Oddity (no unique message for targeting Kojima)
Loved - okay this was a really good point because I just had a conversation about it the other day and realized different people view it differently. I clarified the role PM that it only impacts the majority lynch. It doesn't effectively function as a one vote reduction on said player (so a tie will still be a tie)

I updated the role PMs/added notes for the points you raised on those as well.

I also added a note to Kojima that players that have a role change and are NOT erased will flip both PMs (or three potentially) so it would go Normal PM quoted, below that new PM quoted with the "your role has changed!" stuff included.

Another thing I forgot to add is erased flip. Does seemingly nothing happen or do we get a redacted flip like:

Ty4on has died!


—————

Lastly what the example flip in the opening is supposed to look like. I feel like the vanilla should stay original and presume it will be advertised as role madness of some sort.

I added a note that an erased player will only have the command posted (_____ has died!) and no quoted PM will follow at all.

Balance overview:

• 15 players with 3 mafia. As a baseline in a game with no roles and no neutral this is generally considered balanced.
• As a role madness we have a role for everyone and most town roles have low utility with a few exceptions.
• To balance swinginess should an important town role die there is a backup.
• The neutral is able to change someone's role and can do it pretty much unimpeded unless blocked or targeting commuter even.
• The neutral is slight town sided because the roles generally serve town more and there's a much higher chance it removes a good role for scum.
• Town is information light with very few traditional information roles.
• Town is protection heavy with three seperate ways of avoiding the kill plus a delayed death and possible switcher.
• Tho three are possible; the average amount of protections is probably between 1 and 2.
  
• To balance the protections mafia have a possible marker kill that'll have a higher chance of going through as the game progresses.
• Mafia's strongest tool is eraser which can erase the flip and rewards manipulation.
• Should eraser somehow be removed mafia is not in a terrible situation as we still have marker and dying townie.

Seems balanced. There is definitely potential for that to be skewed a fair bit, but that's inherent in the game and it doesn't seem to push it too much in an unfair direction.


Claims:

• Package Giver can quite strongly be confirmed by another townie.
• Ladder can explain they stopped the NK.
• Dying can't prove themselves, but can later on get town to settle on leaving them to die.
• Commuter can only prove their role in a few edge cases.
• Backup depends on what they get. Can however early on claim utility.
• Adrenaline can't prove themselves.
• Messenger most likely negative claim since mafia can decide not to share.
• Loved can fairly easily be proved, not guaranteed town though.
• Vanilla only has fluff, potentially somewhat negative.
• Motion can be confirmed-ish and is somewhat unlikely mafia ability.
• Oddity Detector can be confirmed, but is somewhat alignment independent.
• All mafia roles are fairly obvious.

So 4-5 ish confirmable townies, but most are of varying degree with IMO only 2 strong.

Mafia claims:

• Cop is really strong, but should be played right as full cop will be considered too strong to live and one shot is more expendable.
• Miller is dependent on cop and probably a bad one as either flipping will put suspicion on the other.
• Vigilante is an ok way of explaining why you were tracked to the kill and possibly the marked kill.
• Medium has somewhat townie alignment and fits fluff.
• Masons is lol :P
  
• Hider is ok, tho completely unconfirmable.

So cop is fine as I don't think we'll get town completely falling over thinking it has to be town. In a vacuum it is the most powerful claim in the game, but in a game it's gonna be weird that the cop survived the night and a cop can easily be faked by mafia.

Edit: I should've written this at the start instead of meandering for so long -_-

Sounds like we think this is good to go then? :D

 

[Ty4on]

Loved - okay this was a really good point because I just had a conversation about it the other day and realized different people view it differently. I clarified the role PM that it only impacts the majority lynch. It doesn't effectively function as a one vote reduction on said player (so a tie will still be a tie)

It looks like on MU wiki description it's majority as it needs majority in play while mafiascum seem to make it one extra vote regardless in wording.
The confusing thing seems to be that mafiascum (and or other places) often play with majority and not a day end as in the page on lynch they describe it as taking effect "Once a player receives a majority vote" and not as something happening at day end. That could explain the rumors I've heard of mafiascum games never ending lol

Either way is fine as long as the loved player knows it.

Sounds like we think this is good to go then? :D

Yup, gets a thumbs up from me.

Edit:

I added a note that an erased player will only have the command posted (_____ has died!) and no quoted PM will follow at all.

Last thing is just the example role PM. Just because it isn't there, I'm guessing you planned on it regardless. I know mafia have fake claims and all, but just something that could be a townie role PM and following all the same patterns as actual ones.
If there's no example townies could think they have some secret info mafia doesn't and it's possible mafia miss something the townie PM has and out themself.

 

[Natiko]

God we should run a game with no set day phases sometime just to see what happens.

I'll let the game reviewers know and verify I can move this board to approved o7

Thank you both so, so much. I know I was extremely annoying throughout this process and appreciate both of you being so willing to just roll with it and accommodate me.

 

[Ty4on]

God we should run a game with no set day phases sometime just to see what happens.

I'll let the game reviewers know and verify I can move this board to approved o7

Thank you both so, so much. I know I was extremely annoying throughout this process and appreciate both of you being so willing to just roll with it and accommodate me.

No worries, I was too slow too -_-

I think a majority only would maybe need some trial and error so it doesn't transform our meta of voting late into a meta of never voting lol
D1 especially could suddenly never end...
There are some crazy metas out there. With flavor we ofc have MU where it is usually either completely out of player control (only visible on flips) or visible, but it's strictly forbidden to reveal any of it. On the other side of the spectrum you have games where the flavor from the moderator includes clues about the actual game state and the start of the game is usually discussion about what the opening post means.

 

[Natiko]

I would just love to see if doing so could force our player to take stances more often. Maybe it'd completely backfire - who knows. Would probably be best to do it as a mini to remove too many variables.

 

[Ty4on]

Has it been approved and is just waiting for the board to be moved or?

 

[Natiko]

Has it been approved and is just waiting for the board to be moved or?

I guess. I pinged the review team about it and haven’t heard anything.

 

[Ty4on]

How many games have we had with blank flips in some form? I just remember waaaaaaaaay back a game I think Scrafty ran which had a mafia janitor linked to their kill IIRC. There wasn't even a kill message so it took town some time to realize what had happened.

This game, assuming the janitor isn't lynched D1 lol, could set some precedent for how we balance them.

 

[Ty4on]

It’ll be interesting to see how the meta copes with it and what issues it causes for figuring out the game state. On the other side I wonder how mafia can manage to take advantage of it by pushing their world view of what the blank flips had to be.

 

[Natiko]

Dark Souls was all blank flips if I recall correctly. It was an open setup though. I know we've had the role in some other games too but I can't recall them off the top of my head.