Monopoly Mafia - Proletariat of the world, unite!

[Atheon]

faddy
Member

Oct 5 2017 at 8:31am

Welcome to the planning of the game of the revolution friends!
First things first, this is a board game and certain roles and powers will play heavily into that but underneath this is going to be pretty standard Mafia.
The board in question is the Classic UK version

Every player will be represented by a Monopoly token and move around the board with randomly generated dice rolls. At the beginning of each day board will be posted indicating where each token is in the game. Positions on the board effect which players can be investigated, protected, role blocked or killed.
The general flavour will be a Marxist revolution with the Proleteriat (Town) facing off against the Capitalists (Mafia). An Anarchist (neutral) will also be in the game, if successful one town role will become a Neutral.
The spread sheet contains more info.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dm0CbgE-AHSHoijsNn33CqkI8fkaiX06jEIHely2v68/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Atheon]

faddy
Member

Oct 5 2017 at 8:42am

Board game mechanics-
Players landing on Chance or Community Chest will receive a card with a somewhat benign action. Move to space, no vote, double vote, go back 3 spaces, roll again, get out of jail free card. I'm open to suggestions here

Dice Rolls: All dice rolls will be randomly predetermined before the game. Each player will move in a set order (although this makes no difference mechanically) it will ensure I am not fixing dice rolls. Standard monopoly rules, if a player rolls a double then they roll again.

Jail: Any player in jail will be barred from using any power which requires movement.

 

[Atheon]

yn
Moderator

Mostly Harmless

tactical house-sized spider nuke

Oct 18 2017 at 2:36am

Sorry, Faddy. Still looking for your second reviewer.

Launches should be here soon. I've reminded him yesterday.

 

[Faddy]

Time to get this in a finished condition.

 

[Natiko]

Was there any discussion on the old site that wasn’t ported over?

 

[Faddy]

Was there any discussion on the old site that wasn’t ported over?

No. I made the posts you see above. But then mainly did work in the google sheet.

There is another google doc linked in the sheet which contains images that will be used in the game.

And just a quick question. How familiar are you with Monopoly?

 

[Sawneeks]

Still going over everything ( you put a lot of work into the google doc ), but one of the first stand-outs is the Town Psychic Detective. Fits the flavor well but is way too powerful of a role in it's current state.

Is the identity of the Player behind a Token known or is that hidden information?

 

[Faddy]

Still going over everything ( you put a lot of work into the google doc ), but one of the first stand-outs is the Town Psychic Detective. Fits the flavor well but is way too powerful of a role in it's current state.

Is the identity of the Player behind a Token known or is that hidden information?

All the tokens will be known but the player identity will not be given.

I do think the detective is over powered. I posted an idea next to the role card.

Instead of getting all the info, they just get the name of any player visiting the space who isn't town.

 

[Faddy]

The board elements have a lot of nuances to them. I think I have solved this issue with Chance and Community Chest cards that will be shown before the game starts.

I want to try and make most of the board stuff clear before the game starts.

 

[Faddy]

Could you access the image document? It has the chance and community chest cards for the game

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u3vO0BIEv5HV0KMe8EImQiuQq7LVoJF9v-JWXW7LCPQ/edit?usp=sharing

Sheets wasn't co-operating with the amount of images.

 

[Natiko]

I am familiar with Monopoly - different board though. I could access both documents.

Thoughts:

- When does movement on the board occur (barring the special circumstances)? Unless I missed it this is never made explicitly clear. I’m guessing after night actions are locked and before day start?

- Mafia submit the night kill by targeting a player by their actual name right (i.e. Natiko)? Then if said player’s token is in range the kill is performed?

- Another idea for the cop - they target a space and find out the player names of those on the space and get a total number of scum on the space as well. This means if they target a space with one player they’ll find out their alignment for sure, but if they get greedy and go for a two-fer it’s ambiguous which player is scum. Alternatively they could just target a token and find out player and alignment. My concern is they could get lucky and in one check get multiple clears/scum from pure chance with dice rolls.

- To balance out the ambulance perhaps require them to pass Go to get their first shot? I get that it’s town’s only protection role and that they could inadvertently save scum from the arsonist, but it feels so much stronger than a doctor since they don’t even have to target and make a choice to guess who to protect - instead they just get told who they can save.

- Maybe don’t reveal the goal of the arsonist to the other neutral? It doesn’t really hurt anything by doing so but I don’t think that info is necessary for them.

 

[Faddy]

I am familiar with Monopoly - different board though. I could access both documents.

Thoughts:

- When does movement on the board occur (barring the special circumstances)? Unless I missed it this is never made explicitly clear. I’m guessing after night actions are locked and before day start?

- Mafia submit the night kill by targeting a player by their actual name right (i.e. Natiko)? Then if said player’s token is in range the kill is performed?

- Another idea for the cop - they target a space and find out the player names of those on the space and get a total number of scum on the space as well. This means if they target a space with one player they’ll find out their alignment for sure, but if they get greedy and go for a two-fer it’s ambiguous which player is scum. Alternatively they could just target a token and find out player and alignment. My concern is they could get lucky and in one check get multiple clears/scum from pure chance with dice rolls.

- To balance out the ambulance perhaps require them to pass Go to get their first shot? I get that it’s town’s only protection role and that they could inadvertently save scum from the arsonist, but it feels so much stronger than a doctor since they don’t even have to target and make a choice to guess who to protect - instead they just get told who they can save.

- Maybe don’t reveal the goal of the arsonist to the other neutral? It doesn’t really hurt anything by doing so but I don’t think that info is necessary for them.

Dice will be rolled at the start of the day. So on the game opening the players will see the first set of rolls on the board. Players landing on Chance will be shown on that space even if they draw a card that moves them to another space.

Yes the mafia submit the name kill. I might make the chairman role x-shot (2) for unlimited range and give them a range as well. This will mean scum will need to try and get players to reveal their token to make sure players are in range.

The ambulance I think is balanced as it is. I do expect a night 1 save to be highly likely so I understand wanting to nerf the ability by requiring a circuit of the board but unless they hit high doubles or a good advance card it is unlikely they will complete a circuit of the board. And there are enough potential anti-town mechanics out there that an almost guaranteed save is appropriate.

If the other neutral doesn't know then they may protect properties with players which is highly beneficial for town. I suppose I might be babysitting the role by giving them too much info. If they survive and notice the anarchist targeting high value properties they should be able to work out the goal from that.

 

[Sawneeks]

All the tokens will be known but the player identity will not be given.

I do think the detective is over powered. I posted an idea next to the role card.

Instead of getting all the info, they just get the name of any player visiting the space who isn't town.

That could still be incredibly powerful depending on how RNG swings it. The role could be useless as no Scum ever share a space with them ( which can still Green Check a whole bunch of pieces if they share a space with 2+ others and the result comes back as 'no scum' ), or it could catch more than 1 Scum in a single swing.

I'm trying to think of another way it could be interpreted but I'm not sure yet, I still want to read everything over in more detail. One thought I had was if the connection between Players and Tokens is hidden, maybe the Psychic learns who the Player is behind a Token but maybe not the alignment? Especially considering how many pieces seem to do very specific movements it might work in tandem with other roles.

 

[Natiko]

Dice will be rolled at the start of the day. So on the game opening the players will see the first set of rolls on the board. Players landing on Chance will be shown on that space even if they draw a card that moves them to another space.

Yes the mafia submit the name kill. I might make the chairman role x-shot (2) for unlimited range and give them a range as well. This will mean scum will need to try and get players to reveal their token to make sure players are in range.

The ambulance I think is balanced as it is. I do expect a night 1 to be highly likely so I understand wanting to nerf the ability by requiring a circuit of the board but unless they hit high doubles or a good advance card it is unlikely they will complete a circuit of the board. And there are enough potential anti-town mechanics out there that an almost guaranteed save is appropriate.

If the other neutral doesn't know then they may protect properties with players which is highly beneficial for town. I suppose I might be babysitting the role by giving them too much info. If they survive and notice the anarchist targeting high value properties they should be able to work out the goal from that.

See I’m of a mind that this game is skewed in town’s favor (outside of the headcount at least). If scum lose the infinite range role D1 they could be hosed and end up wiffing on numerous night kills. Combine that with a player that can revive others and a neutral that can kill players but has no true control over whether he will or not.. Just seems to me like it would be easy for the game state to get tilted in town’s favor.

 

[Faddy]

That could still be incredibly powerful depending on how RNG swings it. The role could be useless as no Scum ever share a space with them ( which can still Green Check a whole bunch of pieces if they share a space with 2+ others and the result comes back as 'no scum' ), or it could catch more than 1 Scum in a single swing.

I'm trying to think of another way it could be interpreted but I'm not sure yet, I still want to read everything over in more detail. One thought I had was if the connection between Players and Tokens is hidden, maybe the Psychic learns who the Player is behind a Token but maybe not the alignment? Especially considering how many pieces seem to do very specific movements it might work in tandem with other roles.

There is a lookout role for that. But actually for town it is functionally useless to know who is what token. They can't do anything with that information.

The lookout has utility as it gets a whole lot of players who move at night who may be scum, town prs, or a vanilla with a chance card. It could be useful if there are claims to verify who is what role.

The detective picks a space they they don't have to rely fully on dice rolls and they have a huge range to pick from. They could get a high amount of green checks but could also target a space that has one of the moving scum players and they don't get the redcheck on them. They only get the check on the scum blocker or watcher if they pick the same space. So unless scum intentionally moves two of their players to the same space at night the cop can only get 1 redcheck per night.

 

[Faddy]

See I’m of a mind that this game is skewed in town’s favor (outside of the headcount at least). If scum lose the infinite range role D1 they could be hosed and end up wiffing on numerous night kills. Combine that with a player that can revive others and a neutral that can kill players but has no true control over whether he will or not.. Just seems to me like it would be easy for the game state to get tilted in town’s favor.

If scum lose their infinite range role in day 1 then they have failed as mafia. It is clearly their most important role and they have 4 votes to protect it. Scum whiffing is an issue but again I think they have the tools to deal with that.

The game could also get away from town easily. The neutral can kill multiple town players in one night. Town loses a player if the neutral wins. Scum has a very useful roleblocker, they are packing some heat. The chance card kill I also view as a town negative, more likely for town to hit town or even end up in the hands of scum.

There will be board game aspects to this game which could swing it either way but if it starts with a slight town tilt I think that is probably for the best.

 

[Natiko]

I will agree that the headcount is not working in town’s favor so I’m fine with the roles being a bit tilted towards town, but I’m still not sold on if the scum kill ranges are set the best way.

Sawneeks - any thoughts on the mafia kill ranges?

 

[El Topo]

From my experience, giving town more powers to balance the numbers can go very wrong. Just run some of the worst cases for Town and Mafia and see how quickly things can collapse.

 

[Natiko]

So when the scum go to submit a NK theyll know the state of the board and their kill will occur before any more movement?

 

[Faddy]

So when the scum go to submit a NK theyll know the state of the board and their kill will occur before any more movement?

Uhhh. I think that is probably a good idea. There is a proposed movement order in the document, although that might not be clear.

I was initially thinking that Mafia would need to hit players if they moved to spaces during the night phase but that might be too disruptive to scum. As a compromise I think the Train will move to a station before the scum kill but other pieces will not.

I will agree that the headcount is not working in town’s favor so I’m fine with the roles being a bit tilted towards town, but I’m still not sold on if the scum kill ranges are set the best way.

Sawneeks - any thoughts on the mafia kill ranges?

I'm not sure I made ranges clear. They work forward and backwards. I think I need to add that to a "chance card" that will allow a proper explanation in the game thread.

 

[Faddy]

I will take all these suggestions and try to make a more "final" version.

That should happen tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Natiko]

With your recent clarifications I feel a lot better about the design. My biggest concern was scum whiffing on kills frequently but knowing the range is basically double what it reads and that movement will primarily occur after the kills goes a long way in helping that.

 

[Sawneeks]

Sorry, classes are almost over for me and I'll give this another look once you finish the updated version.

I will agree that the headcount is not working in town’s favor so I’m fine with the roles being a bit tilted towards town, but I’m still not sold on if the scum kill ranges are set the best way.

Sawneeks - any thoughts on the mafia kill ranges?

My issue with the ranges comes towards the End Game. Given the sheer amount of roles the move differently + the Chance Cards I worry there would be a situation in which Scum just isn't in range to make a Game Winning kill, leading to them being essentially 'outed' in the process. Like, if there was a scenario where 3 of the Scum Team was near Go and 3 of Town was near Park Place they would be out of luck if they didn't have the long range.

I know you said that the 'dice rolls' would be predetermined Faddy but how much of it will you do randomly. 100% of the rolls?

 

[Faddy]

All the rolls will be random. The plan is to ask 2 of you to give me a sheet with 500 numbers from 1-6 just before the game begins which I will combine and have available so you can see I am not fixing things.

Yes there is potential for the late game to stall if mafia are left with their weakest player. Though ranges work forward and back so there is still a significant portion of the board covered. Mafia will have a tough time if they happen to lose the wrong player but that is all part of the game.

I'm nearly done with the updated version. I have removed a few things that I felt were superfluous.

 

[Natiko]

Maybe there should be a stipulation that if only one mafia player remains they have unlimited range? Sort of like how we usually let them submit an action and a kill if they’re the final one.

 

[Faddy]

Maybe there should be a stipulation that if only one mafia player remains they have unlimited range? Sort of like how we usually let them submit an action and a kill if they’re the final one.

Nah. I'll bump the ranges to
12 which is 25/40 spaces.
9 which is 19/40 spaces.
6 which is 13/40 spaces.

Basically I want a game where scum actually have to put in some work as a team. There is no vig except the chance card which might not come into play at all. And I suppose the bombs but only 2 scum players are vulnerable, there strongest and weakest, and they definitively target a player anyway.

The way I see it a good scum team would work out PRs are likely moving at night with the way their role blocker works.
They also get the token info for players who don't move from their watcher.
They can combine that information to have a really effective role blocker should they find which pieces move on night 1. Of course there are traps for them as well.

Also I am giving town another member since 1 town is essentially a back up neutral making it 4 mafia, 12.5 town, 1.5 neutrals.

 

[Faddy]

Ugh actually I will remove the range restriction on mafia when they reach 1 player.

 

[Natiko]

It would just suck to get to late game as mafia and never be able to get that final kill if the wrong roles are dead for them. It’s easy to say the strongest scum roles would be protected by the team but RNG happens and an exceptionally weak player could get that role.

 

[Natiko]

@Faddy Any more changes you are making? I don’t want to hold you back from running it so anything I need to look over?

 

[El Topo]

A final, updated design sheet including ranges etc. would be helpful to give an updated rating.

 

[Faddy]

Sorry guys. Busy over christmas and new year. Final design should be coming shortly. Sorry for the lack of updates, this just dropped down my priority list.

 

[Natiko]

No worries Faddy. Just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page.

 

[Faddy]

Ok Update done.

Read everything here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u3vO0BIEv5HV0KMe8EImQiuQq7LVoJF9v-JWXW7LCPQ/edit?usp=sharing

Major Changes
As discussed I gave Town another player
I nerfed the psychic detective but gave town a 2nd investigative power
They now have a 1 shot player who can gets the number of mafia on the train stations on the turn they use the power.
I decided not to remove the ranges on a lone mafia player but gave another unlimited range kill. COMPROMISE :)

Slight changes on the chance cards
Mafia investigator is now a standard cop

FEEDBACK PLEASE!!!

yay. I think this works and won't be a complete disaster

 

[Natiko]

So I thought of something as I was looking through it all. With a setup like this what is to prevent town from forcing everyone to claim which token they are? With this setup scum would have no fake claims to rely on and would have to either claim a town token and get called out on it or reveal their actual token. This could big time hurt them in the end game of a kill is whiffed, but on top of that it could lead to the immediate outting of the scum blocker.

One other question - is there any range for the anarchist? Or can they just blow up the most expensive properties in a row and be out of the game by D3 or something?

 

[Faddy]

So I thought of something as I was looking through it all. With a setup like this what is to prevent town from forcing everyone to claim which token they are? With this setup scum would have no fake claims to rely on and would have to either claim a town token and get called out on it or reveal their actual token. This could big time hurt them in the end game of a kill is whiffed, but on top of that it could lead to the immediate outting of the scum blocker.

One other question - is there any range for the anarchist? Or can they just blow up the most expensive properties in a row and be out of the game by D3 or something?

Nothing stops a mass claim of tokens. If there is a mass claim there is no issue with Mafia claiming their own token, their is no reason to lie. None of the Tokens are specifically "linked" to a role. There isn't a doctor token or a cop token, they are just picked from the set. Arguably the Train is the only on linked to a role, I suppose Top Hat being the anarchist is ironic too.

A mass claim of tokens is probably bad for town. If Mafia lose their unranged kills they will know who to target on the board.

---

The anarchist doesn't have a range. They should try and blow up the most expensive properties to get to the total as fast as possible.

I could make a change.
Make it so if at least two players are on the space with the bomb it is disarmed. This info is given to the anarchist.
Give the Neighbourhood watch the win condition of the anarchist to make it sort of clear they should protect high value properties.

 

[Natiko]

Well the scum blocker moves to the space they’re blocking so if a claim is forced that person will be instalynched in most cases. Just figured I’d mention it. I don’t think it’s a big enough concern to not give approval on if you disagree that it’s an issue.

Can the defuser deploy all drones at once? If they deploy to the spot the Anarchist picked N0 will the bomb be stopped? What is the fastest the Anarchist can win (I can’t see the values on your board image, might be because I’m on mobile)?

 

[Natiko]

Also I have no problem with the change you mentioned though I’d think the primary purpose for that would be to prevent a huge fluke swing due to multiple deaths as opposed to it being much of a counter balance to the Anarchist. Very few roles have any choice in what spot they land at so it doesn’t feel like a great counter when it’s all RNG.

 

[Faddy]

Well the scum blocker moves to the space they’re blocking so if a claim is forced that person will be instalynched in most cases. Just figured I’d mention it. I don’t think it’s a big enough concern to not give approval on if you disagree that it’s an issue.

Can the defuser deploy all drones at once? If they deploy to the spot the Anarchist picked N0 will the bomb be stopped? What is the fastest the Anarchist can win (I can’t see the values on your board image, might be because I’m on mobile)?

That kind of movement was always planned to be silent. It will never show on the board. Now night moving as a mechanic has been cut it is even less of an issue. And for clarity the Community Chest " Target player to Go To Jail " has priority over the Mafia Rolebocker.

So now night actions in order
Chance Block
Mafia Block
Defuser Drones
All Kills simultaneously
Investigation results, new bomb planted, mason meeting
Revive

The Mafia Blocker doesn't Block the Defuser. Is killed if they land on the bomb space but aren't killed if they target the bomb space.

I should put this stuff in the document.

---

The defuser uses their drones every night. So they protect X number of spaces per night and can switch every night if they want.
The fastest the anarchist can win is start of day 4. Basically they need 3 successful bombs.
They can fail If:
1. They are in Jail
2. They are blocked by the scum blocker
3. The defuser protects the space
4. *maybe* if they pick a space that 2 players land on (this seems like a good idea to stop mass casualties)

The anarchist won't know about the defuser so there is a decent chance the Anarchist picks Mayfair (£400) for night 1 and gets blocked.

---

I need to fix one chance card that no longer makes sense. The Drunk in Charge one is redundant since moving at night got scrapped. Maybe a Troublemaker card.

 

[Natiko]

Ah, so every single night they scramble as many drones as they have to the comparable number of spaces? Then the next night they can pick all new spaces if they like for all their drones? That makes a big difference too, I think that role PM should be spruced up as it doesn’t seem clear as is.

 

[Faddy]

Ok. I have updated. That should clear up the issue.



New Chance card is a very weak switcher. All it does is change the positions of players on the board. Acts after role blocks and will fail if
1. The player using the card is sent to jail using the CC block
2. if either token chosen is roleblocked

If one or both of the masons is targeted by the switch their meeting will fail.

 

[Natiko]

So to make sure I understand - Player would land on the chance space at day start, use the card the next night, masons would then lose their chat the following day and night at a minimum if one is hit by it?

 

[Natiko]

I think the final thing is to just make sure you’ve accounted for all possible actions, moves, etc. in an order of operations somewhere so there can be no question once the game starts. That and with how complex the game is at night you may want a co-mod if you can find someone. Just a suggestion though, you may be more comfortable with it as the creator.

 

[Natiko]

Or you can make sure actions are due with a good chunk of time left ahead of day start.

 

[Faddy]

I think the final thing is to just make sure you’ve accounted for all possible actions, moves, etc. in an order of operations somewhere so there can be no question once the game starts. That and with how complex the game is at night you may want a co-mod if you can find someone. Just a suggestion though, you may be more comfortable with it as the creator.

I think I have accounted for everything but I do need to write all this stuff down for completeness so I can't be accused of rigging anything.

The game isn't that complex now! That is something I have reduced through almost every iteration with the idea that the players should be having fun and not me watching my crazy/unfair scenarios play out. I have scrapped two or three big mechanics altogether.

As far as work at night, it would be easier if i did everything myself. However if I became unavailable the game would grind to a halt so I think someone else helping who really understood the game rather than just MafiaEra Mods chipping in would be wise. You have been really great in helping fine tune the design and giving an outside perspective of what I have explained in my head vs what is on the page and would be ideal to co-mod in that respect.

Beyond usual Mafia stuff is updating the board and send out PMs with chance cards. The cards will all be in an imgur album. Updating the board I will do in GIMP, literally like a board game going down the playing order and moving the tokens around the board with the pre-generated dice rolls which will be on a google sheet.

I think I would also run this game with fixed phases like the invitational

 

[Natiko]

Once it has a tentative slot let me know and I’ll see if I can be available to help out. Could be good experience for when one of my games run. Once you get the full order of operations added let me know and I’ll glance that over. Outside of that I think everything is good to go.

 

[El Topo]

1. 13 Town, 1 Survivor, 1 Anarchist, 4 Mafia. Town has powerful roles, which might make up for this, but one should never underestimate the ability for Town to fuck up.
2. Bombs of the Anarchist do not harm anyone?
3. I have no idea whether the boardgame mechanic is fuck this thing up.
4. I appreciate how much effort you have put into this.

 

[Sawneeks]

1. Question for the Paramedic, do they get Player names or Token names when using their ability?
2. Follow up to Topo's question about the Bombs, if they can harm people you may want to include that in the Role PM.
3. the Community Chest card 'Income Tax Refund' is incomplete. 'Your token will revealed' at the end should be 'Your token will be revealed'.
4. Also what Topo said, you put a ton of work into this and it's very impressive

Faddy, have you ever done numbers on when the soonest someone could pass go is ( without using Chance/Community Cards )?

Other than that I do not really have any issues with it in the current state. I do think this game should come with a heads up to players when they sign up that it will have some unusual mechanics and also a map. Will you be explaining before the game begins that certain roles have limited ranges or will that be hidden information?


Questions for @Natiko and @El Topo . Do you think the Town -> Neutral role, the Penguin, should include something in its' Town role PM stating they may switch alignments? I almost feel like springing that on a Town player be a little unfair but I'm unsure.

 

[Faddy]

1. 13 Town, 1 Survivor, 1 Anarchist, 4 Mafia. Town has powerful roles, which might make up for this, but one should never underestimate the ability for Town to fuck up.
2. Bombs of the Anarchist do not harm anyone?
3. I have no idea whether the boardgame mechanic is fuck this thing up.
4. I appreciate how much effort you have put into this.

1. Question for the Paramedic, do they get Player names or Token names when using their ability?
2. Follow up to Topo's question about the Bombs, if they can harm people you may want to include that in the Role PM.
3. the Community Chest card 'Income Tax Refund' is incomplete. 'Your token will revealed' at the end should be 'Your token will be revealed'.
4. Also what Topo said, you put a ton of work into this and it's very impressive

Faddy, have you ever done numbers on when the soonest someone could pass go is ( without using Chance/Community Cards )?

Other than that I do not really have any issues with it in the current state. I do think this game should come with a heads up to players when they sign up that it will have some unusual mechanics and also a map. Will you be explaining before the game begins that certain roles have limited ranges or will that be hidden information?


Questions for @Natiko and @El Topo . Do you think the Town -> Neutral role, the Penguin, should include something in its' Town role PM stating they may switch alignments? I almost feel like springing that on a Town player be a little unfair but I'm unsure.

Thanks to both of you for reading through and giving feedback.

The paramedic only gets the player names, there is no reason to reveal a token.

The intention for the Bomb was that it would kill 1 person on the space but fail if two people landed on it. But reading over what is written it does read like the bomb will fail if any player lands on the bomb space. Which probably is for the best actually.

That feeds nicely into the question about should the town player know they would become a neutral. Initially I was going to give the info then I thought perhaps the town player could guess they weren't town aligned and refuse to use their commands but with the change in how the bomb works giving a slight heads up seems fine. (Previous it said "aligned to Town for now..." at the end of the role card, I will put that back in)

Good catch on the card, Sawneeks.

Passing Go can be achieved in 2 turns with lucky dice rolls. That is only really a thing for the Paramedic which gives them decisions about using their shot/role claiming.

I will explain what ranges are. There is one chance card that deals with ranges and an explanation will be given with image in the document. That should be sufficient for understanding how ranges work although if any player is still unclear they will be able to PM me about it.

Making it clear at sign up that there are board game or RANDOM aspects to this game is not a problem. All the rules and chance cards will be open at the beginning of the game.

 

[Natiko]

Yeah it should specify that they may change alignment. No reason to hide it really.

So now a planted bomb will be disarmed if a drone is on it or a person? Drones don’t persist between days right? Does the bomb explode before or after movement at night? Before I assume but just want to be sure.

 

[Sawneeks]

Agreed on the Penguin. That line is good too, it explains enough.

I asked on the possibility to Pass Go just because of the Paramedic. It's a very strong role and I love the way you have it to get shots back so I was interested to see how many times it could possibly be used in a game. Considering 2 turns is probably insanely lucky roles, it should be fine.

 

[Faddy]

OK I think this is now the FINAL update. I have ironed out the many kinks.

Big changes.

Paramedic is now an auto revive if they use their power because while I'm all about choice I couldn't see any real dilemma in using the power
It could also be used as a cop power since they would know the name of the dead player and they are likely town. Got enough cops.
If more than 1 player dies in the patrol zone they revive everyone, the only info they get back is the number of Players saved.

The Swap card is now a day power because I couldn't quite get the interaction of the blocker and the swap coherent. So now the swap happens during the day before any block can occur. And it can be submitted in the thread because why not.

The Anarchist is immune from Jail. With all these extra traps taking away a shot from luck seemed harsh so they just ignore jail.

I changed the win condition to 50% for scum after the Console Mafia issues. A bit of a fudge with the double vote card, mafia don't get it if it gives them 50% of votes. Same for non Mafia hitting the no vote card. I will just ignore these cards and give them the next one. BTW if anyone asks about it then the official line will be that I'm not fixing anything but really I am. Bastardo.

The Mafia Blocker text was re-written to be a bit clearer in what it actually does. Then there is a full list of bullet points near the bottom that explain the interaction with all the roles and combinations of. Basically every weird thing I could think of and how it would play out. If you think of more edge cases let me know.

 

[Faddy]

I think this is good now. What happens to move this to the next stage?

@Sawneeks

 

[Sawneeks]

To move this to the next stage all Reviewers have to give this the 'Green Light' and let the Review Team know it's ready to run. Usually then you'd work on Role PMs but you're way ahead. :>

I do have a couple more questions before I give this my all clear, unsure about the others. @Natiko @El Topo

 

[Sawneeks]

OK I think this is now the FINAL update. I have ironed out the many kinks.

Big changes.

Paramedic is now an auto revive if they use their power because while I'm all about choice I couldn't see any real dilemma in using the power
It could also be used as a cop power since they would know the name of the dead player and they are likely town. Got enough cops.
If more than 1 player dies in the patrol zone they revive everyone, the only info they get back is the number of Players saved.

If they are an auto-revive do they use the command still? Or is it more 'if they use their shot it revives automatically'? And if they use the shot and nobody dies within 7 spaces is the shot still used up?

Good call on the Cop bit too, that's very possible. One other way around that would be to give them Token names instead of Player names of who dies but the auto-revive also works.

Either way the Role PM needs to be updated to reflect the changes.

From the Doc:
A blocked player will receive a PM simply saying “Your Command Failed”. In the instance of a player with limited shots being blocked shots will be refunded.

Does this get sent to every player or just PRs?

A vicious guard dog Blocker that can stop Players entering or leaving the Space to complete Actions. Actions that occur exclusively on the Space still be successful
Submit the Command Guard Dog:[Space] to block ALL Players entering of leaving the space to complete Actions. Your Range is 10 spaces

Very minor on the Blocker role PM, the top line should have 'on the Space will still be successful' and the bottom line 'ALL Players entering or leaving the space' added to them.

And I'd almost say maybe consider adding that the Blocker blocks 'ALL Players regardless of alignment' to the description. A Scum role being able to stop their own kills isn't extremely common so it's possible Scum can block themselves one Night without proper reading. However, it should be up to them to fully read over their Roles so that's something that can be left up to you whether or not you clarify that in the PM.

 

[Faddy]

Yes they still need to use the Command, they need to pick when to use their shot. For example on Night 1 they might get a dice roll that put them well away from the main bunch of players in that instance they might choose not to use their shot.

The shot is on the Ambulance command, they don't get refunded if they use it and get no saves. Before there was a higher chance of scum dying during the night so I was giving the option of using the shot but actually not saving a player or having to pick between 2 players. That isn't the case and the chance of extra kills is kind of slim now.

If a player submits a command and it fails they will get a generic "Your command Failed" rather than a specific, your were [jailed],[blocked], [out of range]. The blocker will not get a fail if they block a player without a command and a player without a command will not get notified if they are chosen to be blocked.

I won't add the part to the Blocker. If mafia don't communicate well, that is their problem. If they ask I will simply re-iterate ALL Players.

 

[Sawneeks]

Gotcha.

Those were all of my remaining questions/concerns though. I think everything checks out fine.

 

[Faddy]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Natiko]

1. When a property is blocked (or filled with four players) is it treated as if it doesn’t exist when players are moving around the map? This is clarified for the staying a hotel card or whatever but not for these scenarios.

2. “All spaces are vacant at the start of a day phase”. What does this mean exactly?

3. What is the move order? Just the player order?

4. Have you verified it’s okay with Gafia mods that your rules mention counting misspelled votes “within reason”? Have you considered that the vote count tool may be back and could save you the manual work so long as you are enforcing that names be correct?

5. Is the intention of not showing players that advance to spaces due to chance cards on that new space to cause potential fuck ups for mafia? This will definitely make mafia players complain if they whiff a kill due to it since they would have no discernible explanation in the case of knowing a player is in range based on the board.

6. Not sure how I feel about the town/neutral role not converting to neutral just based on if mafia is about to win. Feels weird, but I don’t have a solid argument as to why.

7. Not sure why it is the blocker can’t block the psychic detective? The reasoning doesn’t make sense to me. I feel the block should work unless the detective is already on the same space as the targeted player prior to the block occurring.

8. The first time scum block their own action they will be really upset with you and will 100% complain in the review thread but you seem okay with that so it is what it is lol

9. One last time.. are we sure having mafia target players as opposed to tokens is the right call? If scum lose their unlimited range kill then they have to rely on the investigator hitting on all checks and that by the next night one of the non-investigative scum will be in range to kill said player which they have no control over.

10. If a range is 7 is that 7 forward and 7 backwards (total 14)? I believe you altered the range to be total range right? If so what is the split for roles that have an even range (assuming their current space is counted it won’t be an even number forward and back). If their own space isn’t counted then the same question applies but instead to the odd range numbers.

11. I think you should just set a specific day phase to remove the double vote and lose a vote cards instead of allowing only one faction to get each one if close to lylo. Feels cheap that way, better to have a more firm rule in my opinion.

@Faddy Sorry for the delay in catching up to the changes. Decided to give it a thorough read through again. I’m also sorry for coming up with so many responses. Plz don’t hate me. I do think it’s close to being ready to go.

 

[Sawneeks]

Actually I lied, more questions.

1. You mentioned above you changed the rule on the last Scum not having an unlimited Kill range. Is this still the case? What happens when there is only one Scum left?

2. Scum are submitting names and not Tokens, Natiko mentioned this above but I agree that may hinder Scum quite a lot once people start spreading out more and in the case Scum loses their strongest Killer. However, I'm not sure how to combat this without just removing ranges entirely and that takes away the majority of this game.

3. Have you ran numbers for an End Game scenario to see what it could potentially look like? It would take a lot more work than a normal End Game run down since you need to RNG movement but I think if there would be any hiccups here it would be around there. My main worry is Scum just not even being close to Town at all and would be unable to catch up, thus revealing who Scum is.

 

[Faddy]

Sorry for not getting back I missed the notifications and just didn't check the thread.
I will write in RED

1. When a property is blocked (or filled with four players) is it treated as if it doesn’t exist when players are moving around the map? This is clarified for the staying a hotel card or whatever but not for these scenarios.

Yes for the purposes of moving due to a dice roll I will not count spaces which are deemed full or bombed.
2. “All spaces are vacant at the start of a day phase”. What does this mean exactly?
If 4 players land on a space on the previous day the first player to roll the dice will be able to land on that space, they don't need a player to move for it to become open

3. What is the move order? Just the player order?
Yes just the player order, that will be randomised.

4. Have you verified it’s okay with Gafia mods that your rules mention counting misspelled votes “within reason”? Have you considered that the vote count tool may be back and could save you the manual work so long as you are enforcing that names be correct?
The actual rules probably need a re-format so that everything is correct. I will probably keep all the rules as determined by the mods then put the game rules after it. I don't think I have access to the latest official rules. I just pasted some stuff from Buffy....

Incorporating new rules about out of game info and whatever else has been decided needs to be added.

5. Is the intention of not showing players that advance to spaces due to chance cards on that new space to cause potential fuck ups for mafia? This will definitely make mafia players complain if they whiff a kill due to it since they would have no discernible explanation in the case of knowing a player is in range based on the board.
Fair point, I will move the bit about chance cards and board positions into the explanations part rather than being secret

6. Not sure how I feel about the town/neutral role not converting to neutral just based on if mafia is about to win. Feels weird, but I don’t have a solid argument as to why.
Well the player doesn't know that win condition at the time, they only get the first card. Basically i am giving the mafia winning priority over the town player changing alignment.

7. Not sure why it is the blocker can’t block the psychic detective? The reasoning doesn’t make sense to me. I feel the block should work unless the detective is already on the same space as the targeted player prior to the block occurring.
Basically you can't block on the same space. So if the blocker moves they are then on the same space so the action goes through.

8. The first time scum block their own action they will be really upset with you and will 100% complain in the review thread but you seem okay with that so it is what it is lol
My official response is please read your role card carefully

9. One last time.. are we sure having mafia target players as opposed to tokens is the right call? If scum lose their unlimited range kill then they have to rely on the investigator hitting on all checks and that by the next night one of the non-investigative scum will be in range to kill said player which they have no control over.
Yes it is. If mafia just kill tokens they are killing at random. There is a somewhat random chance with the game set up but while they have unranged kills mafia can shape the narrative of the game and town can try and read into that. If there is no control it feels sort of dumb to me.

10. If a range is 7 is that 7 forward and 7 backwards (total 14)? I believe you altered the range to be total range right? If so what is the split for roles that have an even range (assuming their current space is counted it won’t be an even number forward and back). If their own space isn’t counted then the same question applies but instead to the odd range numbers.
X number back and forward plus the current space. So a range 7 has 15 spaces available to target total.
Is that not clear in the graphic?

11. I think you should just set a specific day phase to remove the double vote and lose a vote cards instead of allowing only one faction to get each one if close to lylo. Feels cheap that way, better to have a more firm rule in my opinion.
That is essentially what is happening but I am not announcing MYLO/LYLO. And I don't want to announce that because of the neutral. I could just say vote modifying cards no longer work in MYLO/LYLO. That seems fairer. This issue did come to me pretty late so yeah it is a fudge.

@Faddy Sorry for the delay in catching up to the changes. Decided to give it a thorough read through again. I’m also sorry for coming up with so many responses. Plz don’t hate me. I do think it’s close to being ready to go.

 

[Faddy]

Actually I lied, more questions.

1. You mentioned above you changed the rule on the last Scum not having an unlimited Kill range. Is this still the case? What happens when there is only one Scum left?

2. Scum are submitting names and not Tokens, Natiko mentioned this above but I agree that may hinder Scum quite a lot once people start spreading out more and in the case Scum loses their strongest Killer. However, I'm not sure how to combat this without just removing ranges entirely and that takes away the majority of this game.

3. Have you ran numbers for an End Game scenario to see what it could potentially look like? It would take a lot more work than a normal End Game run down since you need to RNG movement but I think if there would be any hiccups here it would be around there. My main worry is Scum just not even being close to Town at all and would be unable to catch up, thus revealing who Scum is.

If there is only 1 scum left and it isn't the unlimited range player they are in a bit of trouble to be honest. The ranges are fairly large though. 25/40 spaces, 21/40 spaces and I gave them an extra unranged kill for the weakest player who has 13/40 spaces.

I don't want to say it is impossible to work out where players will likely be but there is so much uncertainty with random dice, doubles etc. Mafia can be working it out day by day if they feel they need to plan their kills for ranges. Maybe mafia get really lucky with the dice or maybe they don't.

The whole idea of the game is that Mafia are probably going to have to work hard. They don't have perfect info, they have complex roles, their roles are also tiered in usefulness. They need to work to save the correct players, direct the pressure the right way and use the game thread to work out the things they don't know.

If Mafia sit back and coast they could have problems.

 

[Faddy]

Actually. Thinking about the main threads in the feedback is that I am confusing and restricting the mafia team too heavily.

That is a fair point.

The solution is to not do any dumb stuff with the board. The board will be 100% accurate*, players will be shown where they are for night actions. So a chance card that move a player to Mayfair, the board shows them on mayfair. No funky business.

*100% accurate except for the swap card.

 

[Faddy]

If I could get sent a copy of the Mafi-ERA rules that would be good.

But basically it will go

Post 1 Game Intro
Post 2 Mafi-ERA rules
Post 3 Game Specific rules

 

[Faddy]

Clarification on this point

7. Not sure why it is the blocker can’t block the psychic detective? The reasoning doesn’t make sense to me. I feel the block should work unless the detective is already on the same space as the targeted player prior to the block occurring.

THAT WAS AN ERROR. It was meant to say the Block can't block the psychic detective from targeting them. Fixed now :)

The Psychic Detective CAN be blocked. But the block will fail if the blocker is the target.

 

[Natiko]

@Faddy I feel satisfied with the tweaks to the board display and the clarification on the psychic detective. I do think this game will be prone to heavy swings based on the unlimited range mafia dying, but I don’t know that that’s a good enough reason to hold it back since it seems fleshed out and we’ve poked and prodded all the aspects of it. Only last suggestion I could think of would be to maybe make the T-Rex unlimited kill a 2-shot at least. I’m ready to approve it either way though.

Not sure about @Sawneeks or @El Topo

 

[Sawneeks]

Yeah, I'm also okay with these. Very interested to see how the Mafia team reacts to this since I can see what you want them to do (aka be more proactive instead of just reactive).

You've got my green light.

If I could get sent a copy of the Mafi-ERA rules that would be good.

But basically it will go

Post 1 Game Intro
Post 2 Mafi-ERA rules
Post 3 Game Specific rules

I'll send you the link to the rules in PM.

 

[Faddy]

@Natiko I'm going to say no to the additional unranged kill and take all the blame/credit for mafia being mad.

Mafia should be mad more often.

 

[Faddy]

Maybe i will be nice and allow them to quote their role PMs in the mafia chat.

 

[Natiko]

Like I said - I approve it either way, just figured I’d leave it as a parting comment. Ultimately it’s your game of course. I’m curious to see how it ends up panning out.

 

[Pedro]

Hi hi, everyone!

We're making some changes in the review process, and I need to ask an additional thing from you, @Faddy :

Could you share with us the priority list for night actions? So we know which role will act before which. Thanks!

 

[Faddy]

@Pedro action order is in the document. I did ALL the work.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u3vO0BIEv5HV0KMe8EImQiuQq7LVoJF9v-JWXW7LCPQ/edit#


As with normal Mafia some actions may interact so the order of operations is important. Priority is a follows

Swap Card (day action), Stasi Card, Mafia Blocker, Investigations, Kills, Bombs, Revives

I have a full section in my document that details how all the interactions will work between roles as well.

---

I should probably give a brief outline of the situation of removing the neutrals vote which I forgot I put in a while ago. I didn't get any feedback on it either @Sawneeks @Natiko
Basically in the situation where neutral + mafia = town I didn't want the game to just be over by the neutral outing. So if they claim they lose their vote. The neutral isn't negatively impacted by this at all unless they out before LYLO.

Deciding if they have outed will be up to me. Based on the neutrals posts in the game thread and in part in the mafia reaction or if alive the masons reactions in their threads.

 

[Pedro]

Thanks, Faddy! I just scrolled through the thread so I didn't click the links. I'll leave the two to comment on this scenario.

 

[Sawneeks]

I should probably give a brief outline of the situation of removing the neutrals vote which I forgot I put in a while ago. I didn't get any feedback on it either @Sawneeks @Natiko
Basically in the situation where neutral + mafia = town I didn't want the game to just be over by the neutral outing. So if they claim they lose their vote. The neutral isn't negatively impacted by this at all unless they out before LYLO.

Deciding if they have outed will be up to me. Based on the neutrals posts in the game thread and in part in the mafia reaction or if alive the masons reactions in their threads.

Assuming it's this?

You may not claim to be an alignment other than Town. Should you do this you will have your voting rights removed and will be Killed if you have an active vote at the End of Day.

And personally I'm kind of against it. Having a Neutral out at that situation may not be the best but they should have that option given they had survived that long. It's also easy enough for Mafia/Town to simply turn on them as well and not out themselves in that case. It would still be a calculated risk as they wouldn't know the Scum numbers either.

The subjective nature of it too can be a problem. Some people are just way more perceptive than others and can catch a Neutral like nothing. Scum also typically get an advantage there considering they don't need to look for Scum so anyone they see lying they can easily assume are Neutral. Or sometimes bad Town. Not to mention that isn't in the Town Role PM and they may, for whatever reason, hint at it then too when Town not knowing they can be punished for it later.

 

[Faddy]

Assuming it's this?



And personally I'm kind of against it. Having a Neutral out at that situation may not be the best but they should have that option given they had survived that long. It's also easy enough for Mafia/Town to simply turn on them as well and not out themselves in that case. It would still be a calculated risk as they wouldn't know the Scum numbers either.

The subjective nature of it too can be a problem. Some people are just way more perceptive than others and can catch a Neutral like nothing. Scum also typically get an advantage there considering they don't need to look for Scum so anyone they see lying they can easily assume are Neutral. Or sometimes bad Town. Not to mention that isn't in the Town Role PM and they may, for whatever reason, hint at it then too when Town not knowing they can be punished for it later.

The ability to infer scum numbers in most games is pretty easy in my opinion. The neutral can out if they want, there may be good reasons to do so, the only restriction is they can't have an active vote when the day ends.

They can still lie or do whatever they want, they just can't say they are neutral. Either explicitly or in a code. Just someone calling them a neutral won't be enough and I will err on the side of caution. I would need to see a smoking gun.

 

[Sawneeks]

The ability to infer scum numbers in most games is pretty easy in my opinion. The neutral can out if they want, there may be good reasons to do so, the only restriction is they can't have an active vote when the day ends.

They can still lie or do whatever they want, they just can't say they are neutral. Either explicitly or in a code. Just someone calling them a neutral won't be enough and I will err on the side of caution. I would need to see a smoking gun.

What about breadcrumbs? i.e. are you looking for a direct 'i'm neutral' or are you counting hints like 'i may have changing alignments'?

 

[Faddy]

What about breadcrumbs? i.e. are you looking for a direct 'i'm neutral' or are you counting hints like 'i may have changing alignments'?

Saying they may have changed alignments is claiming to be not town so that clearly is a violation.

If you think it is an outright bad idea I will scrap it.

 

[Natiko]

Yeah I don’t think I’m a fan of this at all. It’s really unfair to the neutral to place a post restriction on them and remove a completely viable tactic all in order to try and give Town a false safeguard. If they mislynch themselves into that position and the neutral recognizes it then that’s on them.

 

[Faddy]

Ok consider it cut.

 

[Faddy]

Testing

 

[Faddy]

 

[Faddy]