Spectator Thread Greed Island GM control room

Lots of funny moments in this game but man it is really not fun being Scum read by Monkey. I was actually really close to just subbing out, because I felt I was just being mobbed all day long.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blargonaut
Lots of funny moments in this game but man it is really not fun being Scum read by Monkey. I was actually really close to just subbing out, because I felt I was just being mobbed all day long.
This is how I felt in the previous game I played with monkey, once she has made her mind she makes you feel like an idiot for even attempting to argue you are town. She just gets this really condescending tone to her.

Probably we got in so bad terms because I just wasn't having it and wouldn't give up, lol.
 
Royal has to be the one that took Sorians role right?
Does he have more shots? Because he hasn't dropped a hint since that really obvious post on D2.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gorlak
Royal has to be the one that took Sorians role right?
Does he have more shots? Because he hasn't dropped a hint since that really obvious post on D2.
Yeah I guess so, and if so he did the last chat too. If scum targeted someone it was probably him. You protected Royal, didn't you?
 
[QUOTE="Gorlak]

How much sense would it make for scum!zipped to pull in Montiko when Dubs is doing the same? That seems a bit over the top and unnecessary

[/QUOTE]

Unless you want to isolate either natiko or monkey or both and want to predict what they are going to do. Or pocket one of them. Or both.

If both zip and dubs are scum, then they succeded in one of them looking like town.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gorlak and Sawneeks
I did indeed. Though I almost protected Monkey first but then I thought of looking into who could have taken Sorians role and stumbled upon Royal.
Great choice, you probably saved town from a mislynch and, if royal took sorian's power, he might be able to get two checks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sawneeks
The thing is that monkey doesn't believe in coincidences yet this game has several.

Two players with ITA's that claim are town. And one of them has yet to prove she actually has an ITA. And has not been killed yet.
Both players shoot either town or neutral with a 100% shot.
Both players got called to two different chats in the same night.

And both pretty much said "haha, ain't that wacky?" and leave at that because "they have other stuff to worry about".

Expect some high level backstabing by the end of this game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gorlak and lokiduck

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
Blarg/Muffin seems like the candidate for today if my memory is correct. With Zipped being protected by Montiko it's unlikely he gets killed and Kyan is starting to show up more and be reasonable enough that he won't be in the line of fire. But breaking it down the scum placements are a little odd. It's probably not Zipped given the chat + Dubs shooting him, Kyan helped push the Dubs train along during the Tie day so unless Blarg is a crazy scum role I'm not sure he is Scum.

That leaves Muffin, Blarg, A, and by some extent Vere.

Stu and Donna have brought up good points on Blarg in both threads so I'm hoping he goes next.

Muffin is starting to feel like a long term gambit though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blargonaut
Blarg/Muffin seems like the candidate for today if my memory is correct. With Zipped being protected by Montiko it's unlikely he gets killed and Kyan is starting to show up more and be reasonable enough that he won't be in the line of fire. But breaking it down the scum placements are a little odd. It's probably not Zipped given the chat + Dubs shooting him, Kyan helped push the Dubs train along during the Tie day so unless Blarg is a crazy scum role I'm not sure he is Scum.

That leaves Muffin, Blarg, A, and by some extent Vere.

Stu and Donna have brought up good points on Blarg in both threads so I'm hoping he goes next.

Muffin is starting to feel like a long term gambit though.
If Blarg self-votes again, spect shenanigans. I suspect that is the trigger for the vote lock and he locks himself and someone else (As in me or stu, depending of how it works).
 
Huh, something occured to me about muffin.

What if he actually gets a notification of who he hits with his power, he just only didn't want to reveal that because that would make him a prime target for scum. If he can nullify at random he could just list who got affected per day and that would make for very interesting data for cross reference.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blargonaut
Yeah, but who did he target?

(I'm not actually sure I understand what Muffin is claiming)
He is claiming that he can reverse any power in the game once per night, and his target is random. He has no power over it. He has no checks, no notifications, nothing. As long as he is alive, someone will be screwed over by this.

If a scum tries to kill anyone and gets targeted by muffin's role, the scum will die instead.

If a town tries to run a green check on a town, he will get a red check on a town instead.

The only real evidence we might have in this game that this exists is that kyanrute went from "no moving" to "kyanrute, kyanrute" in the sawneeks check. If kyan targeted another player but got reversed and targeted himself, then this is what happened. With what? No idea, but he clearly didn't kill himself and he has made no mention of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: turmoil7

turmoil7

more than six maelstroms
D1: Stu shot a cop and turmoil was - wtf WAS turmoil doing??? It was so weird. Sorian discouraged us away from B-Dubs, too (which reminds me: HAHA, Sorian, YOU WERE WRONG, HAHA; sorry, I'm done now) so everyone who might have looked at Dubs refused (similar to Bear) probably out of deference to that flip. There were good reasons for town folks to vote turmoil and Stu d1 and it gave scum great places to hide. For this reason we need to watch votes on Muffin really carefully. It's a good place for people to hide no matter his alignment. (I don't mean you, Gorlak, you had really clear reasons here.)
I townreaded blarg and then the world fell apart
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Royal has to be the one that took Sorians role right?
Does he have more shots? Because he hasn't dropped a hint since that really obvious post on D2.
Welcome Malus.
Good job on protecting Royal last night, you went out like a real hero and actually messed up scums plans a bit. But yes Royal is the one with copy shots. Fun fact is that Royal actually used Stu's power to cop check you, which is amusing considering you saved his life.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
This game and chats.


Chat trio, did you talk about the chat with Dubs in the chat you were in with Zipped? Apparently yes because Natiko writes faster than I process things. How much of the Dubs chat did you feed to Zipped? Zipped, I want to hear your take on these events and their relation to your D3 start re: Dubs push.
LOL I was telling Fran we should call this game "Chats the game," considering how many we have had. Wonder if we'll have anymore.

Also on @Muffin (please read this when you enter spec chat.)

He's really beating himself up but he has actually protected town twice now. He would have probs done it a 3rd time??? if someone hadn't stopped another night. XD So great job Muffin, scum is actually really scared of you.
 
Last edited:
I can't believe nobody has looked into finding bread crumbs yet. Of course Scum will know that the Vere bread crumb is false, but Town should really be interested in clearing somebody here I think. It's interesting, that Natiko immediately assumes I must have protected one of the confirmed / essentially confirmed players. Dr. Monkey wold still be an excellent target for Scum and she's not confirmed by any means.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gorlak and lokiduck
I feel bad for Muffin. He just took my spot in Monkey's Scum read zone and I can assure you it's not a fun place to be in. His posts are even almost the same as the ones I made in that situation.
Maybe if multiple people you interact with get mad at you, it's something to do with how you interact with them...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blargonaut
Ok, so I'm going to soft claim and see what you can get from it.
I'm an enhancer and I can send a boost every night to other players, there are several picks (Unblockable, unkillable, undetectable, unlunchable, etc) and players get to have their pick, they get a menu and they can pick one and only one. They can use this boost and apply it to their ability just for one day or night.

This comes with flavour that would make it so I can crumb and this people will know it was me.

But, more importantly, I can get an idea of what type of nen or ability they have because of their pick. They took unlunchable? They have a day ability. They took undetectable? They probably have a scum ability.

Night 1 I picked kyan, he picked unblockable
Night 2 I picked Blarg, he picked unlunchable.

You can make your own conclussions from this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blargonaut

turmoil7

more than six maelstroms
I haven't done the numbers but I think town has the advantage? Losing the malus mislunch must had been bad for scum's odds
 

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
I feel bad for Muffin. He just took my spot in Monkey's Scum read zone and I can assure you it's not a fun place to be in. His posts are even almost the same as the ones I made in that situation.
Maybe if multiple people you interact with get mad at you, it's something to do with how you interact with them...
I'm wondering if monkey will notice the similarities between you and Muffin for this and maybe reevaluate her read but Muffin's history so far has been rough.

I also don't know what can be done in those situations, though. Having been in that position as Scum with monkey on my back I don't think it's possible to argue your way out of it? More answers just reaffirm her read of you and you end up going in circles. I don't think you can ignore her (which means she scum reads you harder) but I guess just trying to do other things and engage other people? Really the goal would be to stop monkey from persuading others to kill you and not necessarily persuade monkey herself.
 
I have to say that it felt pretty uncomfortable reading the interactions involving Muffin over the last couple of days. It's pretty crushing to have near enough every point you try to make get dismissed when you're doing so with good intentions, so I can't blame him one bit for his frustration - I'd feel just the same.
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
I have to say that it felt pretty uncomfortable reading the interactions involving Muffin over the last couple of days. It's pretty crushing to have near enough every point you try to make get dismissed when you're doing so with good intentions, so I can't blame him one bit for his frustration - I'd feel just the same.
It's like with Donna earlier in the thread I noticed. They keep harping on her for only having one scum read, but she was actually trying to scum hunt and it still wasn't enough for them.

I feel like a LOT of players have been pretty tense this game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reki
While I do agree with folks above, this thread is getting a bit too gloomy! Let's talk about stuff we liked for a bit.

Gorlak's work has been pretty good this phase. Making good questions, his vote analysis is a bit more readable than Nat's - they highlight different data, but still - and I both love and distrust that he's so focused on that Verelios read. On one hand, it's nice to see someone not saying "Yeah I'll guess we just leave him for later.", but it also sounds like someone starting to prepare for a vote so nobody can say it came out of nowhere in a future phase. In the same fashion,

Aeleus said:
@empressdonna can you promise me you're town? Because I've been slowly getting really paranoid about you being scum. If you lie I will never trust you again.
This got me super paranoid, it's probably nothing but it's the kind of comment that could be read as faked.

I seem to recall Aeleus ("A" is just for the Vote Tool, right?) likes gambits, even as town. It wouldn't be out of character for all this Donna protector stuff to be a lie to pocket her, and the full claim came at a moment in which she was starting to get some heat and was looking to be the next malus. Town or mafia, the timing of Aeleus' revelation is pretty convenient, there's no denying that.

In that sense, it'd be weird that no meanie baked a power to pocket someone into their role. That's why Monkey's "Nat wouldn't give me a gun just to pocket, too risky" point always sounds weird to me. Like, of course he would, isn't pocketing how Terra and Nat got to the very end of LB3? If there's a game other than HvV to try and pull crazy gambits for fun, it's this one. The other points she has are great though; reads, analysis and overall play is why I'd lean town!Nat.

The "Same role as me, coincidence!" one, though, is weird because you'd expect to have that Nen type in both teams for balance reasons. It's a bit weird we have yet to see an extra kill from mafia, I'm this close to be convinced one of them is totally a baddie for that dumb flavor reason alone. And in that scenario, Monkey is town imo.

As an aside, I'll make a note to ask people to share at least one read without the words "feel", "gut" or "meta" - of which I've been guilty too - whenever I play again. That way we'd be all forced to make an argument looking at the actual, present game content and as such, a bit more solid of a stance. Of course everyone will think of these things when writing, but they'd be evaluated by the case made in the post after all.

Kyanrute said:
kyaaa is of long notice that kyaaa gets wifomed to death if kyaaa is kyaaa so kyaaa now restricts kyaaa a bit and in that sense iirc your earlier kyaaa read that kyaaa is not kyaaa enough so kyaaa is being of all evil was like what to kyaaa is really hard to please this crowd kyaaa thinks.
Knew it!

By the way, confession time; I didn't remember Muffin's targets were random when Zipped asked either, so shame on me too I guess. That "Who" breadcrumbing picked up my interest too, dunno what to make of it though.

Also please don't kill Blarg. He's so good at brightening up the room.
 

turmoil7

more than six maelstroms
So, tomorrow monkey will activate her ITA and they will try to kill blarg, if it doesn't work just turbo him and to day 6 with maybe 2/3 scum remaining

Well, this is what I expect if crazy things don't happen
 

Fanto

Confirmed Town
First of all, lol Blarg was unlynchable, of course.

Second of all, I haven't read any spoilers in here yet.

Now, re: Monkey/Muffin as was discussed above, I went and read through that portion of the thread, and I do agree with Alexem that it made me uncomfortable, and I felt bad for Muffin.
but man it is really not fun being Scum read by Monkey. I was actually really close to just subbing out, because I felt I was just being mobbed all day long.
once she has made her mind she makes you feel like an idiot for even attempting to argue you are town.
I feel bad for Muffin. He just took my spot in Monkey's Scum read zone and I can assure you it's not a fun place to be in. His posts are even almost the same as the ones I made in that situation.
Maybe if multiple people you interact with get mad at you, it's something to do with how you interact with them...
I'm wondering if monkey will notice the similarities between you and Muffin for this and maybe reevaluate her read but Muffin's history so far has been rough.

I also don't know what can be done in those situations, though. Having been in that position as Scum with monkey on my back I don't think it's possible to argue your way out of it? More answers just reaffirm her read of you and you end up going in circles. I don't think you can ignore her (which means she scum reads you harder) but I guess just trying to do other things and engage other people? Really the goal would be to stop monkey from persuading others to kill you and not necessarily persuade monkey herself.
For some reason, I have never really found myself on the receiving end of a true Monkey Scum Read yet other than a brief moment in MafiEra before being Confirmed Town™, but I definitely know what you're all talking about. I feel like I've been guilty of similar behavior in the past as well in terms of hounding on players that I have a Scum read on, though Monkey definitely has her own unique way of doing it. I have retroactively felt bad in the past and like I was making the game less fun for whoever was in my crosshairs when I just won't shut up about them, so it's something I'm kind of reflecting on now.

I just felt really bad for Muffin reading through those posts. :(

----

Now, as for brightening things back up before I vanish into the night:
This got me super paranoid, it's probably nothing but it's the kind of comment that could be read as faked.
I don't have any further context or reason to believe this, but I'll tell you right now that is a fake comment and Aeleus is Scum for making it even if they are Town lol.
isn't pocketing how Terra and Nat got to the very end of LB3?
No, that was by bussing, not pocketing lol.


Also, context clues seem to be indicating to me that Monkey and Natiko are claiming like Lovers/Masons or something?

And they're widely Town read?

And still alive on D4?

 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Well that was a fun day end. I'm delighted to see how everyone reacts at day start because of what happened with Blarg LOL.

I really do feel like Monkey might activate her ITA just so she can shoot Blarg in the face.

Also great job Vere. You are really confusing and terrifying scum by being cryptic about your role and that vote request was both perfectly timed and good for confusing them even further. XD
 
That's an unexpected kill. Must have been some shenanigans happening.
Looks like Scum is wittling down on the Scum suspects lol.
Not unexpected if Natiko or Monkey had Zip's full claim on the chat. Day 4 ability is stupid strong, you get two mod confirmations in a single day, really late in the game, if Natiko or Monkey are scum they would have to kill Zip for sure.
 
Packages are probably bombs, yeah?

Come on, someone notice that. Please.
They totally are. This is the reason why Fran said game might end today. 4 nights = 4 bombs.
10 players left, 4 die, 6 left, 3 town vs 3 scum, scum controls the vote, scum wins.

Scum is probably playing it safe in case muffin reversed a bomb or someone didn't get the package.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lokiduck

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
They totally are. This is the reason why Fran said game might end today. 4 nights = 4 bombs.
10 players left, 4 die, 6 left, 3 town vs 3 scum, scum controls the vote, scum wins.

Scum is probably playing it safe in case muffin reversed a bomb or someone didn't get the package.
Who has claimed packages so far? Donna got one today.
 

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
Monkey mentioned someone else got one but I also missed who got it.

Gorlark should have a high-chance of nailing the bomber, either with my main role or the passive ability of my role if he is killed/lunched.
They'd have to nail scum today in order for that to work, no? If the packages really are bombs and they mislunch today then it's over.
 
They'd have to nail scum today in order for that to work, no? If the packages really are bombs and they mislunch today then it's over.
Well the role stealer is still running around so there is a chance they might hit scum with stu's ability. Also the switcher can redirect a kill, or muffin could have reversed a bomb or reverse a kill tonight. Monkey didn't activate her ITA but can still do that tomorrow and hit scum.

But yeah they really need to hit scum today if they want to win. The fact is they probably don't realize the packages are bombs, so as monkey said, they think they have "more time".

Also I'm curious about royal mentioning he targeted him and muffin.
 
But I’m gonna say this: there’s no possible universe in which I, as scum, having perpetrated a kill that will already make ME look bad, walk into this thread and say dumb shit that makes me look worse. I’m not stupid. And I’m very not-stupid as mafia.
I get monkey, I really do. She plays in this really strong no-nonsense approach. Anything other than optimal play is stupid. Anything other than optimal play makes no sense.

But this is a role madness game, where people are trigger happy with their roles. Stu had the right idea with shooting first, if Sorian ws scum imagine the mad town points that would earn him. Of course, investigating would have made more sense, but with so many crazy rules what would be the odds stu would have the chance to shoot?

Chances are Natiko took advantage of Monkey's love for the perfect playstyle and gave her a gun because there was a chance she would buy it as a pro-town move. As paranoid as Monkey is, she believes hard results. And the result was she got a gun she didn't ask for and shoot a neutral player. I was risky, but so early on the game it was a worthy gamble.

This pocket is going to go down as one of the greatest pockets in Mafiera story.
 

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
Well the role stealer is still running around so there is a chance they might hit scum with stu's ability. Also the switcher can redirect a kill, or muffin could have reversed a bomb or reverse a kill tonight. Monkey didn't activate her ITA but can still do that tomorrow and hit scum.

But yeah they really need to hit scum today if they want to win. The fact is they probably don't realize the packages are bombs, so as monkey said, they think they have "more time".

Also I'm curious about royal mentioning he targeted him and muffin.
I'm fairly certain Royal was hinting at being the role thief? At least I remember thinking that the last Day Phase over something he said.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gorlak and lokiduck

Zippedpinhead

I'm a wee bit mad at Weemad
Monkey, Natiko and Zipped were in a chat where he told them that he could make a check tonight. And Monkey still doesn't doubt Natiko.

He completely pocketed her with the ITAs

Also, the game could end today.
This right here.

I even said in my submission that I’m not investigating natiko or Dr. Monkey because if either of them are scum I’m dying night 4.

Which would hopefully give the remaining townies some help in noticing that Montiko are at best T/S, and at worst S/S.

I didn’t know how else to say it other than “the WHO” in that one post.

it’s natiko isn’t it?
 

Zippedpinhead

I'm a wee bit mad at Weemad
my experience is different, if zipped is looking townie you should begin to worry
Right? Zip gets really invested when he has to look like the good guy.
I’m really trying to perfect my attentive/inattentive regardless of alignment because of this. It’s hard to fake not paying attention as both town and scum.

The man in the mirror LEGO Batman video from last day phase is because I used my role on Verelios that night, and the results I got were verelios visited me and my target moved.
 

Zippedpinhead

I'm a wee bit mad at Weemad
Still have no real clue on who else is scum. I guess based on reading spec that one of my previous scum reads is in fact town. And my last action would have hard confirmed Town
 

Sawneeks

Queen Doppelpopolis
Okay, okay, that was the last one I promise. Sorry, Monkey :p

This is also why I don't inherently trust people when I get pulled into chats. I have been pocketed too many times to trust people from that. Negative side being I get hyper paranoid and things like outing Muffin happens so it'e a 50/50
 
Honestly its a good thing I got replaced, if I was still playing I'll be hard scum-reading monkey right now thinking there was no way she would be pocketed by Natiko, that it was the other way around by claiming a power she obviously doesn't have to justify shooting someone back then (that lucky for her was neutral and not town), and that so far all she has done is fall-town lead to flip dubs, who she probably decided to bus since the chat to pocket natiko went so badly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lokiduck
I think Donna is in the right track, the last scums have to be in that list, I'll go blarg ->aeleus->natiko
My guess is Aeleus isn't there because Donna believes in her Guardian Angel haha.

(if A is scum, I'll be shocked. Also well done A if you're scum lol)
 

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
This right here.

I even said in my submission that I’m not investigating natiko or Dr. Monkey because if either of them are scum I’m dying night 4.

Which would hopefully give the remaining townies some help in noticing that Montiko are at best T/S, and at worst S/S.

I didn’t know how else to say it other than “the WHO” in that one post.

it’s natiko isn’t it?
Hey Zipped! I absolutely love your role, you went so deep into flavor (unlike other players >>) and it gave me a good laugh when I first saw it.

Even Donna is starting to shade her for the hard town read.

Donna. the one who doesn't shade. that's how you know monkey is in that pocket deep.

I'm so proud of Donna. XD She has been really consistent in her convictions and when she started trying to point out to Monkey that Nat is scum I was so proud of her.

Go Donna Go! Solve the game!!!!
 

turmoil7

more than six maelstroms
I know by now we are in spec with our fancy spoilers beating a dead horse but I want to comment on

Why not make a real killing role?
Because it's fun? With my Nen I could had probably done a town roleblocker if I cared about winning over everything else, but I made a switcher because I thought that would be more fun to play.

Same with ITA, imo for town a well used dayvig>ITAs, but ITAs are fun so I can see why someone would make them

I guess the lesson is to not make assumptions about roles and alignments.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Natiko and Sawneeks
I know by now we are in spec with our fancy spoilers beating a dead horse but I want to comment on


Because it's fun? With my Nen I could had probably done a town roleblocker if I cared about winning over everything else, but I made a switcher because I thought that would be more fun to play.

Same with ITA, imo for town a well used dayvig>ITAs, but ITAs are fun so I can see why someone would make them

I guess the lesson is to not make assumptions about roles and alignments.
The main lesson we should take out of this is that we can pretty much twist anything into a town-role if we work hard enough. Muffin even if heavily suspected is still alive somehow, I was sure he would be gone the moment monkey outted him. Natiko tried to kill a player that now turns out was town in plain daylight and he is still top town in eveyone's mind. Stu killed Sorian and maybe if I wasn't vote locked into him... maaaaybe he could have avoid getting lunched that day. Who knows.

I guess its all about timing and talking yourself out of trouble.
 

Zippedpinhead

I'm a wee bit mad at Weemad
LOL scum may wish they had let zipp live, he'd be entering today with a red check on town due to powers shenanigans. XD
No way! My investigate on
A
would have been swapped around? Oooo that would have been terrible.
 

Zippedpinhead

I'm a wee bit mad at Weemad
I decided after the tie day 2 that I was going to seriously think about using the investigate vs the mod confirmed town.

Yesterday not having a lynch meant that town confirming me wouldn’t be as useful as a redcheck.

I liked having options, it was fun.
 
No way! My investigate on
A
would have been swapped around? Oooo that would have been terrible.
Actually, I think this may have worked for town. If you got a red check on A, and you came forward with that, then the role stealer would have probably come forward saying they switched A and another player, so in a roundabout way you would have hit scum and it would be a great time for you and the role stealer to prove towniness.
 
Welcome Zipped! That role looks super cool and complex, seems like you had fun making it. Your "Who" remarks yesterday were fun with Monkey even asking and stuff.

Also she will eventually see baddie!Nat, provided the game doesn't end suddenly as Fran suggested. Monkey is entertaining the scenario Donna pointed at but also argued that there're easier cases for today, which is true. She was in a kinda similar situation with fowl_playa in Avatar, but eventually pulled off the win with Nat in f3. Don't forget she's a fantastic player and has seen through late game lies multiple times, so go Monkey!

I'd be looking at Aeleus too. @Fanto's gut is sometimes right so I'm trusting you here! And there're a few players that are doing great work like Donna and Gorlak, really want them to win now. Sorry for the betrayal Nat.

Now watch Nat just being a pawn of Gang Mastermind Donna.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gorlak and Natiko

lokiduck

Awww yiss mothafuckin' breadcrumbs
Actually, I think this may have worked for town. If you got a red check on A, and you came forward with that, then the role stealer would have probably come forward saying they switched A and another player, so in a roundabout way you would have hit scum and it would be a great time for you and the role stealer to prove towniness.
LOL that wasn't the power that fucked with Zipps check.