MafiEra Season 18 Review |OT| I can't believe Sonic & Tails killed the mafia.

[EzekelRAGE]

I think it ruins the game of the person who knows the alignment, especially when the person who slipped keeps goading them.

“Replace or” should’ve been put in there. If the info is too much for them.

 

[EzekelRAGE]

Nah. Don't slip or town will know your scum is even simpler.

You can't make people hold info other players who were in the wrong gave to them

You keep going on about town vs scum. It’s possible for town to have a slip as well.

 

[jman1954goat]

“Replace or” should’ve been put in there. If the info is too much for them.

Salvapot should never have to replace in that spot.

if I was in your shoes Zeke the second Salvapot found out I would have Told town the truth myself that I was scum, I slipped, and they should Vote me out.

it's your Slip Zeke nobody else's, it was a mistake but it's still your mistake and you have to Hold the L yourself.

it's not ok to ruin another players game for what you did.

 

[jman1954goat]

You keep going on about town vs scum. It’s possible for town to have a slip as well.

And Town should hold the L if it's a town players slip.

Punish the team that made the mistake.

 

[EzekelRAGE]

.

Salvapot should never have to replace in that spot.

if I was in your shoes Zeke the second Salvapot found out I would have Told town the truth myself that I was scum, I slipped, and they should Vote me out.

it's your Slip Zeke nobody else's, it was a mistake but it's still your mistake and you have to Hold the L yourself.

it's not ok to ruin another players game for what you did.

I was fully prepared to hold the L at the start of the next day phase.But, no need to do that when SP said he wouldn’t tell.

I could’ve killed SP when he found out but didn’t since he said he wouldn’t tell.

 

[Fireblend]

My point regarding replacing players that come into contact with info they shouldn't have comes from the fact that these games take a long time to be designed, balanced, etc and in my eyes as a community leader they're as much a service to the game runners that painstakingly worked on them as it is a service to the players. I want to see the games played out per their design, roles, etc without external intervention that may break the game.

In a situation where someone slipped and someone else saw it and it was caught in time for those 2 to have been the only ones involved, I wouldn't want to punish either, certainly neither of them wanted to be in that position. However, the person that compromised the game is the one that noticed, and they should be replaced as to remove that unintended variable. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it relies on a code of honor (that I 100% trust people to uphold, the same as how they don't contact teammates outside of the spaces designed for it). But it's not punishment in the sense that it's meant to be punitive, it's a sacrifice or courtesy extended by the player for the "greater good" of the game, and of course they could get increased priority for the next game they want to play etc, but in order to protect the vision of the game runners that have been waiting months to see their designs played, the reviewers who helped, and the players who're doing their best to solve the game cleanly, it's the way to go. These games are literally played once and that's it. You get one shot. Part of our responsibility is to make that one shot count.

Replacing the person who messed up and slipped would be vindictive, because they don't have more info than they started with and the game isn't compromised by them.

 

[lokiduck]

Someone seeing someone else's slip is not there fault at all they should not be replaced.

If you replace the person who say the slip you 100% have to immediately replace the person who made the slip too it's only fair the person who made the slip is the source of the problem.

I think a game runner needs to immediately mention the slip themselves in a red post to avoid pressure on the players

That would ruin game integrity as much as leaving the players in. We don't reveal why players are replacing out/being replaced out because it might reveal information they aren't supposed to know (such as replacing them for pronoun violations when they were made in a OM chat)

Having the game runner replace two players and reveal a slip happened would make it clear that one of the two players was probably scum or some power and at that point you might as well leave both players in. :/

It's 100% better to replace the player who saw the slip or put all parties involved on a gag order.

Probably better options:
cease
croak
end
kick the bucket [kick]
slay
zap

lol I like End a lot actually.

What term should we replace lynch with in our Rules/Documents?

Suggested alternatives:

1. Voted Out
2. Elimination
3. Kill
4. Removed
5. End
6. Ejected

If you want to suggest a term to use please do so within the next

After this timer runs out I will make a poll so we can decide what term we want to use.

I'll agree with Voted out, it's easier. I do think we should allow game runners to pick flavor appropriate words like when Reki had players "exit the party." In those cases players can use vote out or the flavor words. XD

 

[Fireblend]

Also we're talking about something that has happened maybe 3 times in the history of our community, and that we have discussed how we can potentially help prevent further. It's not like people would suddenly start being dropped from games left and right for noticing scum slips.

 

[jman1954goat]

Replacing the person who messed up and slipped would be vindictive, because they don't have more info than they started with and the game isn't compromised by them.

The game is compromised by them. They were the source of the info that ruined part of the game. Completely disagree with this last statement.

I don't see how sitting out the rest of 1 game for your own actions is vindictive.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

After reading all the good points in this thread, I cannot in good conscience support anything other than "rub out." Voting out is my 2nd option.

 

[lokiduck]

My point regarding replacing players that come into contact with info they shouldn't have comes from the fact that these games take a long time to be designed, balanced, etc and in my eyes as a community leader they're as much a service to the game runners that painstakingly worked on them as it is a service to the players. I want to see the games played out per their design, roles, etc without external intervention that may break the game.

In a situation where someone slipped and someone else saw it and it was caught in time for those 2 to have been the only ones involved, I wouldn't want to punish either, certainly neither of them wanted to be in that position. However, the person that compromised the game is the one that noticed, and they should be replaced as to remove that unintended variable. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it relies on a code of honor (that I 100% trust people to uphold, the same as how they don't contact teammates outside of the spaces designed for it). But it's not punishment in the sense that it's meant to be punitive, it's a sacrifice or courtesy extended by the player for the "greater good" of the game, and of course they could get increased priority for the next game they want to play etc, but in order to protect the vision of the game runners that have been waiting months to see their designs played, the reviewers who helped, and the players who're doing their best to solve the game cleanly, it's the way to go. These games are literally played once and that's it. You get one shot. Part of our responsibility is to make that one shot count.

Replacing the person who messed up and slipped would be vindictive, because they don't have more info than they started with and the game isn't compromised by them.

Agree I agree with this and what Ephi said. I just personally feel that it might be a good idea not affect the replaced players priority or even guarantee they can play in the next game they really want to play in.

After all they did the right thing by telling the game runner and replacing out, if we reward them with priority on the next game they want to do, then maybe it'll be seen less as a punishment for having to replace out.

Also agree that the one who made the slip shouldn't have to replace out as it was just a mistake on their part.

This personally how I would have handled things if I was game running, tho I understand Natiko was in a hard place with the replacement list being exhausted.

In such cases if there are no replacements that can be found then the affected player should be put under a gag order and will be mod killed if they can't keep it secret.

 

[Fireblend]

The game is compromised by them. They were the source of the info that ruined part of the game. Completely disagree with this last statement.

I don't see how sitting out the rest of 1 game for your own actions is vindictive.

Because no one has more information after replacing the player who noticed. The game can carry on with no disruption to the design. The player who slipped doesn't have more info and no one else does either. The disruptive element was the player who gained info outside of the scope of the games design.

 

[jman1954goat]

In such cases if there are no replacements that can be found then the affected player should be put under a gag order and will be mod killed if they can't keep it secret.

I just can't see why you would not kill the player that actually made the most and literally revealed there own secret. How is it other players job to protect them from there own mistakes?

 

[lokiduck]

The game is compromised by them. They were the source of the info that ruined part of the game. Completely disagree with this last statement.

I don't see how sitting out the rest of 1 game for your own actions is vindictive.

Because most of the times slips are mistakes made on accident. It's one thing if someone misgenders another player as that's less forgivable, but making a slip on accident should not be punishable. If done on purpose then yes, but if it's on accident they shouldn't be forced out because of that.

That also does nothing with the person who witnessed the slip as they are still compromised and there's a risk of them outing the replacement. It's not their fault but they are still compromised.

 

[jman1954goat]

Because no one has more information after replacing the player who noticed. The game can carry on with no disruption to the design. The player who slipped doesn't have more info and no one else does either. The disruptive element was the player who gained info outside of the scope of the games design.

Both are the disruptive elements. The info did not come from thin air.

 

[lokiduck]

I just can't see why you would not kill the player that actually made the most and literally revealed there own secret. How is it other players job to protect them from there own mistakes?

Because as Febe said, the one who witnessed the slip has more information than they are supposed to. The one who made the slip still has the same info they had before.

 

[jman1954goat]

Because as Febe said, the one who witnessed the slip has more information than they are supposed to. The one who made the slip still has the same info they had before.

Let's say A player breaks there gag order. Would killing them not be vindictive?

the Player who committed the foul should be the one dinged imo

 

[jman1954goat]

@lokiduck and @Fireblend

If scum slipped in the main thread they would just be voted out.

Why should exposing your own info to a town member in Different thread be treated different?

That playerslot committed a mistake and should just be a compromised slot info wise for there team.

 

[jman1954goat]

.

I was fully prepared to hold the L at the start of the next day phase.But, no need to do that when SP said he wouldn’t tell.

I could’ve killed SP when he found out but didn’t since he said he wouldn’t tell.

to be clear I don't blame you for any of your actions Zeke you did the best you could in a really bad situation were nobody knew exactly what to do.

 

[jman1954goat]

Like personally if I was scum who ever Made a mistake like this I would feel super guilty for town replacing. I would Tell town right away exactly how I messed up I am a scum member and they should Vote me just to avoid any player having to replace.

 

[jman1954goat]

And Yes I think scum being 1 player down is a better solution than forcing a replacement.

if it's the other way and Town Cop accidentally reveals themselves in the smash bros thread (made up example) they should just tell the thread they slip and they are cop.

 

[Fireblend]

@lokiduck and @Fireblend

If scum slipped in the main thread they would just be voted out.

Why should exposing your own info to a town member in Different thread be treated different?

That playerslot committed a mistake and should just be a compromised slot info wise for there team.

Because it's happening outside a place designated for it, and it's not a space controlled by the gamerunner. This means I could potentially pretend I saw someone slip outside the game thread, and gambit off of that. Or, if I *did* notice, not alert anyone and use that info as a way to snuff out the player's teammates without engaging with the game's design or constraints.

On the vindictiveness of replacing the person who slipped: neither the player who slipped or the one who noticed should be punished. They both didn't intend to post in an unintended space, or end up with more info than they're supposed to have, but they did. The player who slipped can go on playing without having obtained additional information that would allow them to act outside of the scope of the game's design, while the one who noticed it did. Replacing the person who noticed it doesn't become a punishment, because we're not seeking to punish a wrongful action that didn't exist. It's a courtesy that that player extends to both the players and the gamerunners to make sure the game carries on as intended. Not that it doesn't suck, but it's not a punishment because there's no infraction. If we were to replace the player who slipped, who is in exactly the same position as the one they had before, with no additional info and no impact to their position within the design of the game, that would be punishing, because nothing is gained (except for justice, or reparation, which are the purposes of punishment in a punitive system) by the players or the gamerunner.

I think I've explained myself well enough up to this point and don't want to turn this into a one-on-one argument, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Sorian]

The game is compromised by them. They were the source of the info that ruined part of the game. Completely disagree with this last statement.

I don't see how sitting out the rest of 1 game for your own actions is vindictive.

It has nothing to do with the player themselves, it ends up ruining the game for the other participants is the issue. That's where replacing out the one who saw the slip comes in. I think you're seeing the replacement as a punishment when it's not, it's an unintended consequence to keep the game state preserved. I understand why everyone did what they did (except Zeke, kind of bm to taunt the way you did honestly) but that did not feel good as another player in the game and I'm sure it did not feel good for Natiko even if this game wasn't completely his baby.

 

[Chuggernaut]

It has nothing to do with the player themselves, it ends up ruining the game for the other participants is the issue. That's where replacing out the one who saw the slip comes in. I think you're seeing the replacement as a punishment when it's not, it's an unintended consequence to keep the game state preserved. I understand why everyone did what they did (except Zeke, kind of bm to taunt the way you did honestly) but that did not feel good as another player in the game and I'm sure it did not feel good for Natiko even if this game wasn't completely his baby.

And I get that it’s not, but it’s 100% going to feel that way to the player that’s replaced. Imagine playing in a game you were really looking forward and catching a slip knowing just because you happen to be looking there at the time and realizing you have to replace out now. That’s going to be a shitty feeling lol.

 

[jman1954goat]

It is funny we are debating so intensely about a situation that will come up Once every 50 games. Probably less.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this one with anyone who wants to replace the the player who saw. firmly in the camp of never replace the player who saw. Also don't give them gag orders lol

At least give them like guaranteed priority in A game of there choice (they might not need extra priority for the next game they play) if you replace them .

 

[jman1954goat]

Like if the gamerunners force you to replace for something not your fault you Get a 1 ""Priority Ticket"
Its like the " money in the bank" contract you hold on to it and cash it in on a game you really want to play even if that games months later.

 

[EzekelRAGE]

to be clear I don't blame you for any of your actions Zeke you did the best you could in a really bad situation were nobody knew exactly what to do.

all good lol

It has nothing to do with the player themselves, it ends up ruining the game for the other participants is the issue. That's where replacing out the one who saw the slip comes in. I think you're seeing the replacement as a punishment when it's not, it's an unintended consequence to keep the game state preserved. I understand why everyone did what they did (except Zeke, kind of bm to taunt the way you did honestly) but that did not feel good as another player in the game and I'm sure it did not feel good for Natiko even if this game wasn't completely his baby.

tbf, i did try to play it straight when he first started grilling me. But once he kept the tunnel goin I just thought I would have some fun.

Also I just saw the "cheeky jerk" post from SP lololololol

At least give them like guaranteed priority in A game of there choice (they might not need extra priority for the next game they play) if you replace them .

That was like one of the first suggestions I think.

 

[Hecht]

Look, y'all do a fine job of making sure permissions work for each new game. Just lock previous scum/gossip/lovers threads when the game is over. Problem solved.

 

[lokiduck]

Let's say A player breaks there gag order. Would killing them not be vindictive?

the Player who committed the foul should be the one dinged imo

no they are breaking the rules and should be correctly punished for it like every other rule breaker.

Someone who reports a slip and is replaced out is not being punished, they are protecting game integrity by removing themselves from the equation all together.

@lokiduck and @Fireblend

If scum slipped in the main thread they would just be voted out.

Why should exposing your own info to a town member in Different thread be treated different?

That playerslot committed a mistake and should just be a compromised slot info wise for there team.

Slipping in the main thread is one thing, it's what happened in costume party mafia. But slipping in a thread on OM where only one person sees it is where we get this situation and in that case the one who saw the slip needs to replace out or be given a gag order if they can't be.

Like personally if I was scum who ever Made a mistake like this I would feel super guilty for town replacing. I would Tell town right away exactly how I messed up I am a scum member and they should Vote me just to avoid any player having to replace.

lol then you are compromising game integrity and messing with what the game runner and reviewers put a lot of work into. If you make a slip and town has to replace out and you feel bad about it, then you can also ask to be replaced as well.

And Yes I think scum being 1 player down is a better solution than forcing a replacement.

if it's the other way and Town Cop accidentally reveals themselves in the smash bros thread (made up example) they should just tell the thread they slip and they are cop.

Again they don't have to if no one saw it. Announcing a slip happened when no one saw it would make a bigger issue out of nothing.

And I get that it’s not, but it’s 100% going to feel that way to the player that’s replaced. Imagine playing in a game you were really looking forward and catching a slip knowing just because you happen to be looking there at the time and realizing you have to replace out now. That’s going to be a shitty feeling lol.

Yes I get that, but that's why myself and others like Ephi are proposing replacement for spotting slips not affecting priority or even allowing them guaranteed priority on a game of their choosing.

 

[jman1954goat]

If you make a slip and town has to replace out and you feel bad about it, then you can also ask to be replaced as well.

I would immediately tell the truth to town before a player had to be replace. my player slot deserves death for messing up imo.

 

[weemadarthur]

Pushing the volunteer self reporter to high priority is a fine compromise imo.

The game does need to come first, for the good of all. There’s no point in force subbing the slipper role in such a circumstance - that would limit the observers to a thunderdome for which was non town slot.

I don’t have fun playing mafia games that are broken not even by the written-in mechanics, but by tech problems.

 

[lokiduck]

I would immediately tell the truth to town before a player had to be replace. my player slot deserves death for messing up imo.

That still messes with game integrity.

We put a lot of work into making our games and even have roles we have grown to really like or be excited about. Having stuff like slips, while on accident can ruin the fun for the players and gamerunners because a mechanic they were excited about didn't get to happen. Yeah sometimes really cool roles are the first to die, but that's a natural result of the game itself. Mistakes aren't the fault of those that make them, but it's still a non game related reason affecting game integrity and what we are discussing is finding a way to contain such incidents when they happen.

 

[jman1954goat]

Pushing the volunteer self reporter to high priority is a fine compromise imo.

The game does need to come first, for the good of all. There’s no point in force subbing the slipper role in such a circumstance - that would limit the observers to a thunderdome for which was non town slot.

I don’t have fun playing mafia games that are broken not even by the written-in mechanics, but by tech problems.

I think if they go this route it has to be 100% reserved slot in game of your choice.

this next game you play you may have gotten in anyway with no extra priority needed

 

[jman1954goat]

That still messes with game integrity.

We put a lot of work into making our games and even have roles we have grown to really like or be excited about. Having stuff like slips, while on accident can ruin the fun for the players and gamerunners because a mechanic they were excited about didn't get to happen. Yeah sometimes really cool roles are the first to die, but that's a natural result of the game itself. Mistakes aren't the fault of those that make them, but it's still a non game related reason affecting game integrity and what we are discussing is finding a way to contain such incidents when they happen.

but if I messed up the guilt would to high for me not to tell the truth

I don't see a world were I don't immediately tell the thread what happened I would not be able to help myself as it's what I feel is right. I would need repentance for exposing my role to another player.

 

[Fireblend]

but if I messed up the guilt would to high for me not to tell the truth

I don't see a world were I don't immediately tell the thread what happened I would not be able to help myself as it's what I feel is right. I would need repentance for exposing my role to another player.

Then request to be subbed out and offer the players and the gamerunners the courtesy of letting them play the game as intended, but don't make that the default outcome for everyone :shrug:

 

[jman1954goat]

Then request to be subbed out and offer the players and the gamerunners the courtesy of letting them play the game as intended, but don't make that the default outcome for everyone :shrug:

But this would clash with my values of Right and Wrong.

 

[jman1954goat]

When Zeke posted in the wrong thread this was still a gameplay action. The message was meant for scum chat but went to the wrong place do to user error. This Gameplay mistakes deserves to Lose said players team there player slot.

From my perspective this still fits the balance from the gamerunners perspective because scum could have slipped anywhere.

 

[jman1954goat]

Like it feels wrong for the gamerunners to move players to cover 1 players own mistake instead of accepting that the players slip as a accidental misplay that lead to them getting Voted out.

when somebody messed up firmly believe they should take responsibility. especially in a game where keeping your own info secret is a key component.

 

[Chuggernaut]

Yes I get that, but that's why myself and others like Ephi are proposing replacement for spotting slips not affecting priority or even allowing them guaranteed priority on a game of their choosing.

Which I also get, but my big issue is I don't think this is actually that great of a trade off. Like we have a bit of dwindling player base problem here and priority isn't this great thing anymore. Like I know we ran some bigger games this season, but legit I played every single game this season by just signing up for them. Like I would personally rather keep playing the game I'm in than be forced to sub out for some future priority slot I might not actually need to get into a game. These are only played once and the game runner only gets one shot at this. I get that, but it goes for the players too. And being forced to sub out because someone else made a mistake just isn't something I can get behind.

Where do we even draw the line for this? If two players manage to catch the slip do you replace both of them out? What do we do if one of them reports that they caught it, but not the other? What if someone slips in the game thread? Does everyone that saw that get replaced out or is this only for someone posting somewhere that isn't the game thread because both of those break the game the same way.

 

[lokiduck]

When Zeke posted in the wrong thread this was still a gameplay action. The message was meant for scum chat but went to the wrong place do to user error. This Gameplay mistakes deserves to Lose said players team there player slot.

From my perspective this still fits the balance from the gamerunners perspective because scum could have slipped anywhere.

Like it feels wrong for the gamerunners to move players to cover 1 players own mistake instead of accepting that the players slip as a accidental misplay that lead to them getting Voted out.

when somebody messed up firmly believe they should take responsibility. especially in a game where keeping your own info secret is a key component.

AGAIN. The one who slipped isn't compromised. Yes it's their fault for causing the slip, but if the slip is contained and was only seen by one person then the best solution is to put the witness under gag order or replace them out so the game can continue like normal.

If you make a big deal about it by revealing your slip, or even revealing why someone is replacing out when the slip was contained, then you are compromising the game itself, and that is not fun to play. It makes wins for catching scum feel undeserved because it happened due to factors outside of the game. A game runner's job is to make sure games run smoothly and contain any fires so most if not all the players have fun. Revealing out of game information to everyone is not containing the fire, LOL It's putting gasoline on it.

When Salva did what he did (yes after Zeke taunted him about it) by revealing what he knew, I as a reader didn't find the game was as fun. I was even considering offering to be a back up player since the replacement list was running out, but when it happened I didn't want to be involved with the game when something like that was allowed to happen.

You want to remove the slipper via a lunch because of outside game information, and that's what you feel is just, but to me as a game runner I find that unfun and not fairly earned for town and we need to prevent such incidents so games are run fairly for everyone involved. It sucks for anyone that has to replace out or be put on a gag order, but it's better for everyone else.

Which I also get, but my big issue is I don't think this is actually that great of a trade off. Like we have a bit of dwindling player base problem here and priority isn't this great thing anymore. Like I know we ran some bigger games this season, but legit I played every single game this season by just signing up for them. Like I would personally rather keep playing the game I'm in than be forced to sub out for some future priority slot I might not actually need to get into a game. These are only played once and the game runner only gets one shot at this. I get that, but it goes for the players too. And being forced to sub out because someone else made a mistake just isn't something I can get behind.

It's unfair to the person replacing out, that's for sure, but it's better than the player having compromised information. The alternative is putting the player on a gag order if they really do not want to replace out, but it will still affect their reads of course. However, there are cases when people can't replace out so maybe we can keep it as the second option with the requirement they maintain the gag order or face a mod kill.

Where do we even draw the line for this? If two players manage to catch the slip do you replace both of them out? What do we do if one of them reports that they caught it, but not the other? What if someone slips in the game thread? Does everyone that saw that get replaced out or is this only for someone posting somewhere that isn't the game thread because both of those break the game the same way.

If more than two people see the slip then I'm pretty sure in most cases there'd be nothing we could about it like when you slipped up in costume party. This discussion is specific to cases where only one player has seen the slip.

 

[Chuggernaut]

Yeah I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree here lol. I'm just going to maintain that I'm very against forcing a player to replace out due to someone elses mistake.

 

[weemadarthur]

All of these weird incidents have 1 thing in common: outermafia errors in setup.

it’s all very well to say, just git gud and close threads etc, but in fact mistakes will happen anyway later because that part of the procedure will eventually be missed by someone. When it does happen, the least-damage option needs to be taken. And hey, it’s also a learning process for strange seldom used site features that nobody foresaw could compromise a game. This is what testing on a live system is. It causes issues for people that didn’t earn it.

 

[weemadarthur]

What if we agree that next time a forced substitution occurs, everyone who can donates a dollar and they get sent a cake from a local bakery that says “Priority Ticket #1” on it?

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree here lol. I'm just going to maintain that I'm very against forcing a player to replace out due to someone else's mistake.

Yep and that's fine you feel that way. It's why I'm proposing also allowing for gag orders with enforcement if a player really does not want to replace out and will keep the slip quiet. We are asking in such cases that they replace out if they can't or risk a mod kill and lower priority.

All of these weird incidents have 1 thing in common: outermafia errors in setup.

it’s all very well to say, just git gud and close threads etc, but in fact mistakes will happen anyway later because that part of the procedure will eventually be missed by someone. When it does happen, the least-damage option needs to be taken. And hey, it’s also a learning process for strange seldom used site features that nobody foresaw could compromise a game. This is what testing on a live system is. It causes issues for people that didn’t earn it.

Exactly. We should do our best to prevent issues but we need plans for when they happen.

A good example of a OM mechanic no one factored in LOL was in HvV2 actually. On the website we used to have player data featured like who had the most posts or comments. But we also had a part that listed all the new players. I happened to notice that all the illuminati member accounts were listed as new members and since since members were using their regular avatars on said accounts, there is a risk a player could have seen them and realized 1. there was a illuminati 2. a player was illuminati. But amazingly no one did. However, now you can't see the new accounts so we don't have to worry about that issue in the future.

 

[weemadarthur]

Wasn’t there art once, when the site was named gafia? That board probably suffered in the changeover.

 

[Natiko]

Someone seeing someone else's slip is not there fault at all they should not be replaced.

If you replace the person who say the slip you 100% have to immediately replace the person who made the slip too it's only fair the person who made the slip is the source of the problem.

I think a game runner needs to immediately mention the slip themselves in a red post to avoid pressure on the players

I don’t think the ‘replace both’ option is remotely valid. It would clearly raise eyebrows in the game thread, and would cause a decent hit to the replacement list.

I've considered putting it into the rules but I'm not sure we could write something universal that would cover each instance. Plus I'm not sure how many players actively check the rules and it may not be clear that your role has a modkill threat in it if you break it.

We will keep that in mind! Monkey already gave the more detailed answer but we do try and space games out by player size and complexity to avoid this kind of feeling. Just a little tough sometimes when the building blocks are all 30 players :p

!!!

Sorry, Puns. I fixed it ;;

I like this idea. I'll make another post detailing what suggestions we have so far and when we can have a vote.

Once it has been proved to be correct then it can be considered

Ah, reminds me I wanted to make something that will be posted in new Modchats. Some gamerunner just copy/paste the rules from very old games when the updated rules or in OM. Thank you for pointing it out.

I grabbed the rules from OM though?

Can someone argue with me why a Scum team member themselves compromising the games integrity by posting on the wrong spot should not result in that scum members Slot being killed?

That’s overly punishing to scum. Not only are they down a person but then they don’t get the night phase to do their actions.

I do kind of feel honestly Salva should have been replaced out. It was not fault of his own obviously and not blaming him or anyone but once the slip was made and hw knew about it, the game was compromised.

Slips happen and no one is doing it intentionally but ultimately I feel the action that keeps the game alive and well is the best one to take.

I get the sentiment, but I don’t think most players will feel a priority pass or any other make good would be a good consolation prize. Imagine this had happened in HVV3, a highly anticipated game that we may never see another of. Someone having to sub from that over no fault of their own and being told they can get into some other game they aren’t as excited for and maybe could’ve got in anyways isn’t particularly enjoyable. That said we’re talking about something we’ve seen happen like...four times ever? Locking the threads and making sure the ongoing game is at the top to me feels like enough of a safeguard that we don’t even need to formalize what happens. Let the gamerunner decide.

 

[jman1954goat]

Yep and that's fine you feel that way. It's why I'm proposing also allowing for gag orders with enforcement if a player really does not want to replace out and will keep the slip quiet.

How would this gag order even work ?

What stops me from faking a read check to lynch the player of something similar.

he'll even Salvapot tunneling Zeke was enough to make me think Zeke was scum.

That’s overly punishing to scum. Not only are they down a person but then they don’t get the night phase to do their actions.

Scum still get to use the night action that night. I fail to see how this is more punishing than the slip in Costume party.

 

[lokiduck]

I get the sentiment, but I don’t think most players will feel a priority pass or any other make good would be a good consolation prize. Imagine this had happened in HVV3, a highly anticipated game that we may never see another of. Someone having to sub from that over no fault of their own and being told they can get into some other game they aren’t as excited for and maybe could’ve got in anyways isn’t particularly enjoyable. That said we’re talking about something we’ve seen happen like...four times ever? Locking the threads and making sure the ongoing game is at the top to me feels like enough of a safeguard that we don’t even need to formalize what happens. Let the gamerunner decide.

It's not much of a consolation prize for highly anticipated games, but at the very least I think it's something over just them having to replace out.

These kind of issues aren't that common and the new measures will help prevent them but it wouldn't be so bad to have it be a thing for when it does happen.

Basically the player who witness is given one of two options.

1. They replace out and get priority on the game of their choosing.
2. They stay in the game but with a gag order in place. If they feel they can't keep the information secret or it affects their reads too much, they can still replace out later and get that priority. However, if they reveal the information at all to anyone else they are modkilled.

 

[Chuggernaut]

@Natiko yeah I keep thinking what if I went through all that mini game nonsense to revive myself in HvV3 only to have to replace out because I caught a slip. I do not think I would be happy

 

[Chuggernaut]

Also I’m more against the gag order than I am the replacing out. That’s just unnecessary frustration

 

[lokiduck]

How would this gag order even work ?

What stops me from faking a read check to lynch the player of something similar.

he'll even Salvapot tunneling Zeke was enough to make me think Zeke was scum.

Like Gag orders have always worked. With Cult of Kosmos chat in HvV3 and Illuminati chat in HvV2 If members directly mentioned the existence of it in the main thread, they'd be mod killed. In our case in HvV2 we had a player that was a illuminati hunter and when he confronted us about it, we couldn't directly confirm our group existing.

Breadcrumbs are allowed sometimes, but the gamerunner usually decides what is a break of the rule. In this case the player would be restricted from directly talking about it or hinting it even happened. They'd have to find other methods to catch scum like Salva was trying before he said it. It'd depend from game runner to gr on what would be allowed tho.

Scum still get to use the night action that night. I fail to see how this is more punishing than the slip in Costume party.

having the player be modkilled means scum loses a slot immediately, and it not happening via them being voted out means there's always a risk more mafia might be voted out before they can use their power.

It makes no sense to kill that slot unless they did something actually rule breaking and they didn't by making the slip on accident.

 

[Natiko]

How would this gag order even work ?

What stops me from faking a read check to lynch the player of something similar.

he'll even Salvapot tunneling Zeke was enough to make me think Zeke was scum.

Scum still get to use the night action that night. I fail to see how this is more punishing than the slip in Costume party.

But a modkill does not end the day, this scum could get modkilled then voted out that same phase with no night action inbetween. The slip in costume party didn’t result in a modkill, so there is a clear difference.

Also I’m more against the gag order than I am the replacing out. That’s just unnecessary frustration

If anything I think we’ve seen that a gag order doesn’t seem likely to go well. Salva was the one that opted to withhold the info without me asking or telling him to, even going into that voluntarily it frustrated him enough to blow the game up. Having that forced on you is probably not going to be pleasant - hell in HVV3 the flavor slip in Hedin’s PM that Ael caught was extremely frustrating to play against as the cult because we literally couldn’t respond to the points being made without getting ourselves killed. I’m sure there a good half a dozen or more posts of me being very salty about this in our chat lol

 

[lokiduck]

Also I’m more against the gag order than I am the replacing out. That’s just unnecessary frustration

LOL I agree honestly, I'm just trying to find alternatives for if a player really doesn't want to replace out. We may also have cases where there will be no replacement anymore or no one can swap in. I guess the better alternative would be a mod kill of the slot but that's worse than replacing someone out. sooooooo

Guess we stick with replacing the person out and we'll hope they are okay with it.

 

[SalvaPot]

How long until we start metagaming slips into players deep in tunneling.

 

[jman1954goat]

having the player be modkilled means scum loses a slot immediately

But a modkill does not end the day

Keep in mind I don't want a Modkill. I want mods to hide the info if possible. However if a player of a opposing faction finds out before info is hidden I think Mod should tell the thread about it.

thread decides what to do from there. (Things would play out as close to a normal slip as possible.)

 

[lokiduck]

How long until we start metagaming slips into players deep in tunneling.

if it happens more than once every other season maybe it'll happen, but ideally it won't ever be a thing.

 

[lokiduck]

Keep in mind I don't want a Modkill. I want mods to hide the info if possible. However if a player of a opposing faction finds out before info is hidden I think Mod should tell the thread about it.

As I have said many times now, that just makes it worse. It breaks game integrity worse than having to replace one player.

 

[jman1954goat]

As I have said many times now, that just makes it worse. It breaks game integrity worse than having to replace one player.

I disagree that it's worse. I'm not sure how to convince you.

 

[jman1954goat]

Like you have a moral obligation to stand with the person who saw the slip. It feels like a betrayal to replace a non rule breaker.

 

[jman1954goat]

I know it makes me a bad person but I would feel betrayed if a game runner replaces me when I have done no wrong. I would be salty for a long time.

 

[lokiduck]

I disagree that it's worse. I'm not sure how to convince you.

Because you can't. Because I have explained to you, people learning about a roll via outside information breaks the game and makes it unfair for everyone as everyone feels their win might be underserved. The same thing happened when the last scum in conspiracy 2 was mod killed because of rule violations. Town won the game, but no one liked it because it wasn't earned via playing the game.

If we just replace the one person who witnessed the slip, then the game can continue without any influence by the mistake and it will be like it never happened. People can have fun, they can solve the game with in game information and the game runners will see the game they envisioned play out.

Just imagine... you are a game runner (you have a game you want to run right?) Imagine you are really excited about running a game because you put a lot of blood sweat and tears into it and it has really neat mechanics.

BUT THEN, your favorite none town role that had some awesome mechanics you wanted to see most, accidentally posts in the wrong thread and a town player sees it.

You decide to tell the thread that a slip occurred between these two players. Everyone finds out this non town role (which was extremely deepwolfing it BTW) is not town and votes them out before you get to see the mechanic you wanted to see happen. Additionally town is upset the flip happened because it feels underserved they got this player. Victory feels hollow.

 

[SalvaPot]

Thinking about it there is very little we can do for slips, and agree that mistakes do happen, but I do think that it is the responsiblity of the poster to make sure they are posting in the right chat, as simple as that. Maybe there shouldn't be a replacement, and it sucks for the hard work for gamerunners, I know that, I have been now on both sides of the issue (Back when I ran Harry Potter and now), and really it should be up to the player who caught the slip how it should be handled, and how many caught it.

 

[SalvaPot]

I know it makes me a bad person but I would feel betrayed if a game runner replaces me when I have done no wrong. I would be salty for a long time.

That doesn't make you a bad person, but sometimes you have to think about what is better for a game and the fun of the other players.

All things considered I probably should have just insisted on getting replaced, even if zeke was on borrowed time and probably made for a very interesting moment in our Mafiera history.

 

[jman1954goat]

Just imagine... you are a game runner (you have a game you want to run right?) Imagine you are really excited about running a game because you put a lot of blood sweat and tears into it and it has really neat mechanics.

I have a couple cool roles that I'm excited to see what players do with them. I also understand I'm just the designer it's not my role it's the player's role as soon as the game starts.

I would be disappointed but 100% if a player pulled a Zeke I would let the thread know what happened knowing my cool role won't get used. That's just how it is.

 

[lokiduck]

Like you have a moral obligation to stand with the person who saw the slip. It feels like a betrayal to replace a non rule breaker.

We do not have a moral obligation LOL. Our job as game runners is to be neutral and run games fairly so everyone has fun. Not everyone is going to have fun tho. Yes the town player saw the slip, but our job is to make sure the game isn't compromised so everyone else can enjoy it and hopefully the player is okay with that. ALSO THE ONE WHO SLIPPED DID NOT BREAK ANY RULES. Your asking the slipper to out themselves or be replaced when they didn't break the rule is just as unfair.

I know it makes me a bad person but I would feel betrayed if a game runner replaces me when I have done no wrong. I would be salty for a long time.

It sucks for the player yeah, but it's better for the game as a whole.

 

[jman1954goat]

ALSO THE ONE WHO SLIPPED DID NOT BREAK ANY RULES.

I believe posting outside the designated game threads is Already a rule.

if it's not it should be.

 

[jman1954goat]

@lokiduck monkey warned me for discussing the game in the Season thread. What Zeke did absolutely broke a rule.

 

[lokiduck]

I have a couple cool roles that I'm excited to see what players do with them. I also understand I'm just the designer it's not my role it's the player's role as soon as the game starts.

I would be disappointed but 100% if a player pulled a Zeke I would let the thread know what happened knowing my cool role won't get used. That's just how it is.

That's a fine perspective to have as a game runner but you still need to consider what is the best way to make the game fun and still be run properly.

Announcing in thread a slip happened or letting a player stay in the game when they know compromising ruins it for the other players.

 

[lokiduck]

I believe posting outside the designated game threads is Already a rule.

if it's not it should be.

It was made on accident and in the case with Zeke the comment was deleted before anyone besides Salva could see it. Posting on purpose is one thing, but other wise it was a complete mistake and again... the one who slipped is not the one that is compromised.

 

[jman1954goat]

It was made on accident and in the case with Zeke the comment was deleted before anyone besides Salva could see it. Posting on purpose is one thing, but other wise it was a complete mistake and again... the one who slipped is not the one that is compromised.

Breaking a rule on accident is still breaking a rule. we disagree on what course of action to take but Zeke Objectively broke a rule.

 

[lokiduck]

Breaking a rule on accident is still breaking a rule. we disagree on what course of action to take but Zeke Objectively broke a rule.

Even if that's the case, he wasn't the one that needed to be replaced out. The Slipper is not the one that is compromised.

 

[jman1954goat]

The Slipper

I'm not sure why but this Name is so funny to me.

One day someone needs to make a role called "the slipper"

 

[lokiduck]

I'm not sure why but this Name is so funny to me.

One day someone needs to make a role called "the slipper"

we do have a mafia roll called a Snitch I feel like it'd have a similar mechanic XD

 

[jman1954goat]

we do have a mafia roll called a Snitch I feel like it'd have a similar mechanic XD

What does the snitch do?

 

[lokiduck]

What does the snitch do?

A town role that reveals a town power if they get voted out.

 

[SalvaPot]

I hope my new tag is reminder enough to be careful and post only scummy posts in your scummy chat, lol.

 

[jman1954goat]

probably made for a very interesting moment in our Mafiera history.

Don't worry Mario Kart will be very memorable! I won't forget that split second after you exposed Zeke when I thought you and Zeke were scum together and were going for the biggest gambit ever.

 

[jman1954goat]

Mario Kart was not fun towards the end but I felt I learned a lot and super happy to have played it. (Kart chat was fun)

 

[jman1954goat]

Be Honest am I posting to much? Not sure if I'm talking to much for a review thread.

 

[Fanto]

That said we’re talking about something we’ve seen happen like...four times ever? Locking the threads and making sure the ongoing game is at the top to me feels like enough of a safeguard that we don’t even need to formalize what happens. Let the gamerunner decide.

This is pretty much where I'm at with it. The exact scenario that happened here can be almost completely prevented in the future now by taking the steps we've already agreed to take. If something like this does somehow happen again, where a single player discovers something about Scum or the setup in general via OM, then I suppose the Gamerunner can look at the past situations and decide what to do in that case.

 

[heymonkey]

I'm tired and it's late, so I'll expand more later here, but I want to clarify something.

Zeke didn't break a rule. Zeke mistakenly posted in the wrong thread. That's different. Mistakes can also result in rule-breaking, but in this case, no, I can't say I would ever term it rule-breaking. Also sanctioning Zeke there doesn't fix the issue, so discussing it in terms of rule-breaking is not, I think, helpful.

We don't discussion ongoing games anywhere but in officially sanctioned threads or PMs to the gamerunner/game watchers because even something you think may be innocent or straightforward can influence the game. It's something we will always work to squash immediately. In this case, the things happened to overlap (threads and posts and game influence) but they aren't the same and aren't handled the same.

I have been wrestling a lot about the slip issue and my thoughts on it. It's easy to just say "oh, Salva should have been replaced" but when we make something a rule, it's a firm rule and I'm not sure this is a one-size-fits-all situation, especially if it's one that can be fixed by moving or locking game threads. I know when I was mafia once in a costume game here, I had a lot of anxiety about posting in the correct thread. It's an OM problem in general. Also, if we make a rule about autoreplacements on things like that, it can lead to someone just not speaking up but knowing. The game then is still compromised, but no one else knows, and it puts all the struggle on the player who happened to see something. It's complicated.

I think in the moment my decision would have been to replace Salva, though I'd have hated it, but I don't know because it wasn't my choice and I wasn't in that moment; I only have hindsight. I haven't really figured out yet how I feel about the whole thing, especially since in this case, EVERYONE was on OM and it could have played out differently. Different post content, different thread, different players, and it could have easily just been "oh, that was supposed to be my boat chat." But this didn't play out like that and it's a convergence of factors that won't always be the same that created an impact and it's hard to make one rule to guide that. There are layers to be considered. But I did want to address the difference and to address the "no discussion of ongoing games" as a different sort of beast.

Mostly, with regard to the slip situation, I just feel kinda bad for Zeke, because shit happens but that one's a bummer.

 

[heymonkey]

This is pretty much where I'm at with it. The exact scenario that happened here can be almost completely prevented in the future now by taking the steps we've already agreed to take. If something like this does somehow happen again, where a single player discovers something about Scum or the setup in general via OM, then I suppose the Gamerunner can look at the past situations and decide what to do in that case.

Yeah, I do honestly think that some rearrangement here could really help.

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah... fixing the OM stuff might be all we need to do, but I do think it'd be a good idea at the very least to make it clear that any player replacing out because saw a slip (if that's what the gamerunner decides on) isn't going to get their priority affected at the very least.

It'd still suck for them, but it's not a punishment at least.

 

[malus]

How would you handle a situation where someone slips in an official gossip chat?

I think the main problem in MK was that the slip happened in a completely unrelated thread outside of the game. This means the info is outside of the game and it's pure chance if someone happens to come across it. In such a scenario, I feel if the game state can be saved by replacing just one player, it should be done. But if it happens within the game itself (i.e. a gossip chat / the game thread...) no action should be taken by the game runner and the players should be free to disclose it openly, since the info comes from within the game.

 

[lokiduck]

How would you handle a situation where someone slips in an official gossip chat?

I think the main problem in MK was that the slip happened in a completely unrelated thread outside of the game. This means the info is outside of the game and it's pure chance if someone happens to come across it. In such a scenario, I feel if the game state can be saved by replacing just one player, it should be done. But if it happens within the game itself (i.e. a gossip chat / the game thread...) no action should be taken by the game runner and the players should be free to disclose it openly, since the info comes from within the game.

If it's the game thread then it's a Chugg situation where there's nothing we can do. But if it's a gossip thread... I think it'll depend on the game runner but if there is one gossip, then it might be good to replace the gossip >> But you are right that it's a bit different being an official thread.

I'll let the others chime on since they might have a better suggestion while I think on it. I wanna lean towards it just being a case where the scummie has to just deal with the gossip knowing. After all if the scum is really worried about it they can take out the gossip possibly.

 

[Yuta]

It's pretty simple... Zeke fucked up. A Slip is a slip, he has to live with that. No actions need to be taken.

Trying to salvage the game by replacing others is extremely unfair (e.g. we haven't had a partner game in 1.5 years). We can't assess who actually saw a slip, so punishing those who speak up is only a band-aid at best. I get why some prefer to to sub out the catcher, "preserve the game state" as Sorian puts it, but I don't think that should be the guideline here. Taking action alters the game anyway, there is always someone going away from the game.

In the end do you see a slip as something outside of the game? Or is it just another aspect of getting your shit together as scum? Scum can and should deal with a self-inflicted blow. I don't see a need to intervene from outside at all.

Ultimately I'm with Salva and Nat:

Thinking about it there is very little we can do for slips, and agree that mistakes do happen, but I do think that it is the responsiblity of the poster to make sure they are posting in the right chat, as simple as that.

That said we’re talking about something we’ve seen happen like...four times ever? Locking the threads and making sure the ongoing game is at the top to me feels like enough of a safeguard that we don’t even need to formalize what happens. Let the gamerunner decide.

 

[lokiduck]

It's pretty simple... Zeke fucked up. A Slip is a slip, he has to live with that. No actions need to be taken.

Trying to salvage the game by replacing others is extremely unfair (e.g. we haven't had a partner game in 1.5 years). We can't assess who actually saw a slip, so punishing those who speak up is only a band-aid at best. I get why some prefer to to sub out the catcher, "preserve the game state" as Sorian puts it, but I don't think that should be the guideline here. Taking action alters the game anyway, there is always someone going away from the game.

In the end do you see a slip as something outside of the game? Or is it just another aspect of getting your shit together as scum? Scum can and should deal with a self-inflicted blow. I don't see a need to intervene from outside at all.

Ultimately I'm with Salva and Nat:

A slip is a slip, but if it happens outside of official game threads does that really mean it should count especially if it can be removed before it does too much damage?

Not to mention it's never fun when scum slips because it means they weren't found through actual game play. Some players in that game have said as much like The Bear.

 

[Aeleus]

I'm with Dr.Monkey in thinking that slipping shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all situation. Locking finished threads should help decrease the chance of slips but in the case that one occurs it should be down to those in modchat.

If the problem with minor slips is that they colour a player's perception of the game state what is considered a slip?

For example I saw lokiduck had changed OM avatar in HvV2 and started to believe it was likely that she was in a secret chat (which was true), I never outed it while the game was on but it did colour my views, should I have been replaced?

A less comfortable example appeared in HvV3, Nin misgendered me in the cult chat and knowing he was apologetic Geno PM'd me to see if I'd be ok with him continuing to stay in the game (modchat then learnt of the situation and told Geno that Nin had to be replaced). While Geno told me that Nin had misgendered me in a PM I had enough experience via gamerunning to know that was almost certainly BS and Geno knew I did when he saw my posts. Should I have been replaced for the crime of being misgendered?

I'm certainly biased in both these cases but I feel it would be wrong to have replaced me on either one (in fact regardless of whether I'd be given pity via the theorized priority bonus I'm not sure I'd stay in the community for the second example)

 

[Yuta]

A slip is a slip, but if it happens outside of official game threads does that really mean it should count especially if it can be removed before it does too much damage?

Yes, it counts for me. How can you be sure it didn't do too much damage? What is too much damage? Replacing a gossip and someone else? How about three or four players who saw it? What about the one who saw it and begins to collect in-game evidence? There are too many obscurities *imo*

Not to mention it's never fun when scum slips because it means they weren't found through actual game play. Some players in that game have said as much like The Bear.

Of course it's not fun, I agree. But that's on the scum. I've made my point above... posting in the right threads is a reasonable requirement we can expect from players. Mistakes don't need to be covered up (I doubt that we can).

Loki, I don't think we will come together on this one. If you want to dive in and establish the nitty-gritty details of how to handle various outlier cases, how one might preserve the game state, define what slips are salvageable and which are not... well, feel free to do so. I just disagree completely, we shouldn't even intervene. For me there is no need for an oversized rule catalogue on this rare occurence. Less is more.

 

[Yuta]

On an altogether different matter:

Midgame alignment change (ATP's role in horror) is bastard and I'd be grateful if games were marked as those (an issue we've already ran into back in 2016 with WWE mafia).

Thank you for listening and belated happy new year everyone :)
See you sometime

 

[lokiduck]

For example I saw lokiduck had changed OM avatar in HvV2 and started to believe it was likely that she was in a secret chat (which was true), I never outed it while the game was on but it did colour my views, should I have been replaced?

I'd point out like I did when you mentioned this before that I always change my OM avatar when I'm in a game even if I have a chat or not or at least I did until I ran Nier. Ever since then i've been popola and I'll probably keep the avatar of whatever game I last ran unless I don't like it anymore.

Plus I had gotten confirmed in thread as Captain America, of course I was going to use an avatar of him. I just didn't want to change my Era one at the time so I changed it only on OM. XD

As for your other points I agree with both you and Monkey that replacement cases should be on a case by case basis with the hope that if a player feels their reads are too compromised they'll replace out on their own.

I don't think you should have replaced out becuse of what happened with nin tho. Or the other example with my avatar.

Yes, it counts for me. How can you be sure it didn't do too much damage? What is too much damage? Replacing a gossip and someone else? How about three or four players who saw it? What about the one who saw it and begins to collect in-game evidence? There are too many obscurities *imo*

Again as I said to chuggs earlier, in my opinions replacement should only be an option when only one person is affected. If it's more than one player or it's in one of the game official threads such as a gossip chat or the main thread, then the scummie is shit out of luck.

One player seeing a mistake made out of game related thread is one thing and makes snese as it was out of game, but anything else i don't see a reason to replace and we have to accept it for what it is, especially if it's made in an official game thread. It sucks but it does happen.

Hell in my first game I had mentor chat, lover night chat, and the main thread and there were a few times I almost posted on the wrong thread because I used the same avatar on both era and OM. The key is that players need to check and while mistakes are made are on them, if there's something a game runner can do to keep the game on track it should be used.

Either way I understand people aren't going to agree with me on this matter, as made clear by my back and forth earlier with Jman. I've explained my opinions plenty in this thread already. So I guess I'll try and butt out on the topic from now.

 

[jman1954goat]

On an altogether different matter:

Midgame alignment change (ATP's role in horror) is bastard and I'd be grateful if games were marked as those (an issue we've already ran into back in 2016 with WWE mafia).

Thank you for listening and belated happy new year everyone :)
See you sometime

Is it still bastard if it's announced to the thread?

 

[jman1954goat]

@Gorlak

Like I don't think a alignment changing is bastard if the thread knows.

for example in HvV 3 (yes the game was bastard but this example is not)

The thread was alerted "a win condition has changed"

if the entire thread gets a message similar to this when an alignment changes I don't think the game is bastard from that aspect alone.

 

[Hawthorn]

About the language issue, I like the idea of updating the game documentation/official terms, but not necessarily policing the individual words people use. Personally I'll stop using both lynch and lunch.

I've seen a few people say "sent home" for voted out, which adds a kind of reality-show flavor that makes me grin, don't really know if it should be official though XD

On the issue of slips, I agree with those who say that slips are kind of part of the game. The same as if a mafia player had accidentally posted in the main thread-- it's unfortunate, and an easy mistake to make, but not doing that is just part of playing as mafia. So the player who noticed it should be able to keep playing and even reveal the info. I'm ok with the alternatives proposed though, and hopefully this hotly-debated issue will become moot with old threads being locked down anyway.

On the issue of proving things such as voting restrictions, I think the main thing is for the situation just to be clear to the affected players. A status effect such as "you have lost your vote" could be interpreted in many valid ways: that you can still vote but your vote won't be counted, that you'll be told by the mod to remove your vote if you place one, or that you'll be mod killed if you even try to vote. I think it should be up to the game runner which option they want to choose, as long as they're clear and consistent & the info is included with the initial notification of the effect. Then it's up to the player how it plays out in the game, though they shouldn't try to vote if e.g. they're explicitly told "it's against the rules for you to vote/do not place a vote." I do think players will sometimes fake these types of effects, and other players will express doubt that the effects are real, which is all fine if a) the rules are clear and b) nobody intentionally breaks them.

I get Gorlak's concern about mid-game alignment changes, I guess I didn't see that one as bastard since the only player whose alignment might have changed (ATP) was notified of that possibility in his role PM and had a possible path to victory without changing alignment.

Random Question!

Does this place every do one-night mafia games? Like....get a group of folks together in a forum or a discord chat to play quick ones?

I would play one of these if somebody set one up! I tried pretty hard to get my rl board gaming group into Among Us since we're all remote, but they told me that they don't like social deduction games as much as I do XD

 

[jman1954goat]

The same as if a mafia player had accidentally posted in the main thread-- it's unfortunate, and an easy mistake to make, but not doing that is just part of playing as mafia. So the player who noticed it should be able to keep playing and even reveal the info

I get why some prefer to to sub out the catcher, "preserve the game state" as Sorian puts it, but I don't think that should be the guideline here. Taking action alters the game anyway, there is always someone going away from the game.

I agree with these two post.

I keep thinking it over and thinking about my chat with Loki duck and this is close to where my opinion is falling.

The slip while in the wrong thread is a gameplay move the second a player in the game sees it and should be treated as close as possible to a slip in the main thread.

replacing a player is interfering with the game too. A new player playing wil! Still change the course of the game.

I really think we should prevent slips at all cost but as soon as even 1 player notices Oh well it's just a slip that happened it sucks but you have let the players Play it out from there.

Replacing a player with no wrongful actions done also hurts integrity to me. As a Mod is covering up a real mistake by a player and further altering the backstage to do so.

 

[jman1954goat]

A slip is a slip, but if it happens outside of official game threads does that really mean it should count especially if it can be removed before it does too much damage?

Not to mention it's never fun when scum slips because it means they weren't found through actual game play. Some players in that game have said as much like The Bear.

I agree remove it before too much damage is done.

I think Just one player of opposition alignment finding out already crossed the point were the game is damaged and you let the slip play out without replacing anyone.

 

[RetroMG]

Random Question!

Does this place every do one-night mafia games? Like....get a group of folks together in a forum or a discord chat to play quick ones?

i believe it has been done in the past.

We have a couple times played mafia on Discord, and there's also ONUW which can be played on a single 48 hour phase, neither of which has happened in a while.

Just adding on to this, the chief reason it hasn't happened more is simply that no one has organized it.* But if you want to see Live Mafia/ONUW/Among Us, be the change you want to see. Go organize it. Personally, I think my schedule is going to FINALLY calm down in a couple weeks, and I'd love to play some Among Us with ya'll.

*A few people did try to get Among Us going, but I kind of wonder if that's a harder sell than live mafia on Discord.

 

[jman1954goat]

Just adding on to this, the chief reason it hasn't happened more is simply that no one has organized it.* But if you want to see Live Mafia/ONUW/Among Us, be the change you want to see. Go organize it. Personally, I think my schedule is going to FINALLY calm down in a couple weeks, and I'd love to play some Among Us with ya'll.

*A few people did try to get Among Us going, but I kind of wonder if that's a harder sell than live mafia on Discord.

If anyone starts playing among us make sure to ping me I purchased the game just in case mafia era started playing it.

 

[Natiko]

A slip is a slip, but if it happens outside of official game threads does that really mean it should count especially if it can be removed before it does too much damage?

Not to mention it's never fun when scum slips because it means they weren't found through actual game play. Some players in that game have said as much like The Bear.

It's still a post intended for a game thread, it's not as if it was completely removed from the act of playing mafia. You're right that it's not fun, but that's just how it goes sometimes. Stu flavor slipped (in a way that made it 100% apparent he was scum) in the game thread, but no one is discussing that. Shit happens.

On an altogether different matter:

Midgame alignment change (ATP's role in horror) is bastard and I'd be grateful if games were marked as those (an issue we've already ran into back in 2016 with WWE mafia).

Thank you for listening and belated happy new year everyone :)
See you sometime

I'm like 80% certain we had this exact discussion a few years ago in a review thread and the conclusion was that per our community's definition of bastard, an alignment change is not bastard. It's equally as bastard as, say, a godfather in that it can cause misinformation for some players, but it is not the gamerunner overtly lying and purposefully spreading misinformation to anyone. If a player's alignment changed and they were not informed, or if they were told they were a cop but were secretly an insane cop those would be bastard. Our definition is:

Bastard: a setup in which the gamerunner divulges false information to the players or that contains roles incovenient to play with and encourage bad sporting behavior, such as Voteless or Tanner.

 

[heymonkey]

Random Question!

Does this place every do one-night mafia games? Like....get a group of folks together in a forum or a discord chat to play quick ones?

Okay, so, about this!

We do sometimes and there was one LEGENDARY game in which Rover did some truly wild biz, but they don't happen very often. We have channels and bots and everything. Sometimes people organize other one-offs, like we played Among Us a few times and suddenly a bunch of us are about to play Phasmophobia together because I started yelling at everyone on Discord to please come play with me. But it's never been an official organized thing. It just seems to happen sometimes when someone gets excited about a thing.

Personally, I love live mafia and will play if it's at a convenient time. We could run games on Discord or even on here if we wanted 1-2 day games. There's a ton of small setups we could just recycle over and over. The livemafia bot I think adjusts based on the number of players so we don't have to do anything at all there.